# Episode 059 - The Sense Making Sickness - with Spencer Hicks - Series Part 1 - Episode: 0059 - Guest: [Spencer Hicks](/guests/spencer-hicks/) - Published: 2020-10-20 - Duration: 1:34:05 (5645s) - YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T682qv1sOcQ - RSS: https://share.transistor.fm/s/e6fa7191 - Audio: https://2.gum.fm/op3.dev/e/pdcn.co/e/pscrb.fm/rss/p/pdst.fm/e/dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/media.transistor.fm/e6fa7191/beefb52a.mp3 ## About An important series introduction is presented in the form of a short audio essay that exists in the first ten minutes of this episode. I encourage you to listen for a better understanding of what to expect. In this coming series of episodes, Spencer and I will attempt to make sense of what is going on in our world to cause such division and confusion amongst neighbors and fellow humans. We will stumble and ramble our way to formulating the questions that need asking and the answers that present themselves. We will try to police our own bias and emotional states, our own judgments, our wrong assessments, and our own blind spots. As new problems emerge for the human condition - we must present and practice new ways of conversation and problem-solving. Neither of us claims to be fully right, to be the most educated, to know the most truths, nor to have the correct psychosomatic tools. But we embark on this multiple part series because it is difficult, important, and we just don’t see many trying to meet the confusions from this lens of perception. Rather than claim the ability to educate the listeners - we hope to usher in individual epiphany by way of exploring and widening our own thoughts. These conversations will undoubtedly be messy at first, but as we determine the correct definitions and jump from stepping stone to stepping stone - we hope the path shows itself and the journey creates sparks of wisdom for different types of listeners at different points of their lives along the way. We have no grandiose ideas of being special, omniscient, or even particularly wise on the subject of sense-making itself - but we choose to pick up our swords and proceed towards the battlefield nonetheless. If individual sovereignty formulates group coherence and strengthens our human ability to process information and make sense of moderns life's complexities - this is the way. In an effort to better understand the division and changing times we are faced with as humanity and civilization - following every episode, Spencer and I will assess what we did wrong, what went right, what could be explained better, what could be thought more in-depth about, how we can discuss what's important for the next episode, and how we can continuously adjust our conversation style and subjects to better explain our findings and ideas for the next conversation. Here we propose that there is a sense-making crisis, we discuss the meaning of truth, self-sovereignty, dogma, bias, thesis as a human, obtaining a why, meeting each other at the wrong playing fields, types of conversation, examples from the political climate and much more. This chat seemed to set a decent groundwork for where we can go next. The map will form itself and we are hopeful the territory will present soon after. These episodes (we hope) will become more formulated and precise as we progress. Enjoy your day and go out of your way to be nice to someone whos not like you. Cheers ## Chapters (none published in episode notes) ## Quotes (none published in episode notes) ## Guest links (from published notes) (none published in episode notes) ## Tags / keywords Spencer Hicks, Junkyard Love Podcast episode 0059, JYLP 0059, The Sense Making Sickness, Sense Making Sickness Series Part 1 ## Archive picks Extracted from the YouTube auto-caption transcript and published About already on this episode. Labeled separately from Jacob’s published About / Chapters / Quotes / Hashtags. ## Memorable quotes - [00:19:18] Spencer: “i've ever heard is uh Bias and dogma turn intelligence to impotence so if you stop seeking out this truth and find facts and just hold on to” - [00:14:41] Spencer: “objective well there is an objective reality we just can never arrive at it because our human lens is flawed through” - [00:30:45] Spencer: “False dichotomy by the way to boil down all political thought to left right is absurd and no actual political theorist would ever do it do i actually” - [00:14:41] Spencer: “things that we just Take for granted as concepts you know as people especially if you haven't uh engaged in like a lot of philosophical um literature or” - [01:29:33] Spencer: “stuff you become the Unchangeable old man who has all the Opinions of the past you know you must be fluid just like the times you know there's” - [01:30:39] Jacob: “There really is a sense-making crisis there's a sense-making emergency and we all have a personal Responsibility and i don't know i mean i a lot of people” - [00:13:22] Jacob: “used earlier um an ushering in of Epiphany so what i want this to do is” - [00:10:58] Jacob: “incoherence In our information ecology and in our Conversations and in the things that we put at the forefront of our attention As far as importance we see” - [01:32:26] Jacob: “of Places on youtube being curious was free being curious” - [01:33:18] Jacob: “follow your bliss and Upgrade your sense-making um Listener take care of yourselves as always love yourself Please stretch please Drink some water um Spencer it's been great” ## Chapter-style timestamps - [00:00:06](#t-00-00-06) — Opening bumper — Junkyard Love - [00:00:34](#t-00-00-34) — Audio essay — division / sense-making sickness - [00:03:40](#t-00-03-40) — Mind virus / Western culture essay - [00:08:06](#t-00-08-06) — Sense-making apparatus / love in interaction - [00:09:27](#t-00-09-27) — Conversation starts — series framing - [00:13:39](#t-00-13-39) — Kickoff — what is truth? - [00:14:41](#t-00-14-41) — Spencer — defining truth - [00:19:18](#t-00-19-18) — Bias & dogma vs intelligence - [00:30:45](#t-00-30-45) — Left/right false dichotomy - [01:26:20](#t-01-26-20) — Ethics / values / studying philosophy - [01:29:33](#t-01-29-33) — Close — series will continue - [01:30:39](#t-01-30-39) — Sense-making crisis / personal responsibility - [01:31:26](#t-01-31-26) — Philosopher recs — Seneca / Arendt / Nietzsche - [01:32:26](#t-01-32-26) — YouTube as free curiosity school - [01:33:18](#t-01-33-18) — Close CTA — stretch / water / peace ## Keywords Spencer Hicks, The Sense Making Sickness, Sense Making Sickness Series Part 1, Junkyard Love Podcast episode 0059, JYLP 0059, sense-making, sense-making crisis, truth, self-sovereignty, dogma, bias, information ecology, conversation, political climate, philosophy, Seneca, Hannah Arendt, Nietzsche, Jacob Rhines ## Hashtags #SpencerHicks #JYLP0059 #JunkyardLove #SenseMakingSickness #SenseMaking #Truth #SelfSovereignty #Bias #Dogma #Philosophy #Seneca #HannahArendt #Nietzsche #JYLP ## Short guest bio (from episode speech + published About/links) Spencer Hicks appears across the Junkyard Love archive (also episodes 0074 and 0088). On episode 0059 — The Sense Making Sickness Series Part 1 — he and Jacob open a multi-part inquiry into the sense-making crisis: truth, self-sovereignty, dogma and bias, information ecology, conversation styles, and political-climate examples. Jacob’s published notes frame the series as messy, self-policing sense-making rather than claimed expertise; Spencer later returns for dialectics/cancel culture (0074) and Break The Hammer (0088). ## Transcript [00:00:06] Jacob: Hello and welcome to the Junkyard Love [00:00:14] Jacob: Podcast At what age do we learn how to have [00:00:21] Jacob: Better conversations At what age do we learn to have better conversations with ourselves [00:00:34] Jacob: It is shocking to almost none who participate in the western culture that the last few years have been filled with division confusion and disagreement across the board our society seems to be riddled with fear blame finger-pointing and bad othering This experiment of unity for the human civilization is bearing its teeth and backing into corners of walls that threaten to crumble when pushed against As a participant in america myself i am Greatly confused it seems we are meeting each other at our differences and neglecting the root of why we would ever strive to mend those differences the fear-based systems of the human organism are constantly deployed against the enemy we see in our neighbor the miraculous skill of language actively splits and becomes less precise as conversations progress farther from progress and closer to interior based outward projections of our own traumas many of us have become wounded Animal versions of ourselves but lack the wisdom to notice it is Not new to note that when we hold up a mirror to ourselves we see our flaws before our own beauty [00:01:37] Jacob: We see our instant judgment in comparison to others much more quickly than we see an aging and changing organism of biology Thus the beauty of reality is denied What we think we are stands abruptly in front of the truth of our reflections has the ego evolved to be so foolish that it protects us from personal pain at every cost but the future of our togetherness as a planet the ever-growing swiftness of technological advancement whisks us off of our feet and into a less humanizing version of conversation the progress of the meme that condenses elaborate thought and complex meaning down to bite-size entertainment has gripped tightly to moore's law and threatens to shortcut us right out of the understanding we assume we know so well as technology improves in a certain direction the future of humans go with it the fast intertwining of the computer data and human mind leaves much of the human behind our obsession with facts as a representation of absolute truth tramples the complexity of the human imagination and ability to love and seek [00:02:39] Jacob: Beauty as we try to condense shortcut and simplify the human experience we bulldoze the ability to police our own limbic and nervous systems we grow farther from the skills of observing thought in identifying with an overarching goal that stands outside of our group identity the great hack that is underway in the zeitgeist of modern culture is precisely on task to simplify the human art form into yeses and no's ones and zeros us and them Social media has changed the culture and direction we are going as culture the addictions to technology as a way of communicating and thinking blinds us from our own validity and group reassurance thinking the shortcutting of dopamine hits has begun to wire each of our brains to skip over self-reflection and sitting with ourselves the pain of boredom seems harder to bear than the truth that we now all play a role in the future of mankind as we fight over the king's throne and dig up mistakes of the past to tear each other down the existential threat grows nearer [00:03:40] Jacob: It is my belief that modern western culture possesses a mind virus a mind virus that uses our fear-based bodily responses and untrained egoic reactions to keep us immensely unaware of our own hand in the downfall of our futures this way of thinking blinds us from seeing that it is parasitic and it spreads across our oceans to infect the minds of anyone with a phone in hand a crisis of meaning is swiftly underway in the human psyche and the direction we march onwards to simply hopes to step over ever having to think about it we consume more data than ever and very few of us fully comprehend how to make sense of any of it actually I feel that none of us possess the power alone to compute the data we assume we know so well the time of human history to come together and attempt to understand what this data means strikes now we are looking at each other all wrong facts fiction neither matters when there is none to argue it dear humanity we have changed the [00:04:39] Jacob: Internet has quickened the building of something strange and it is our duty as soul in a meet Vehicle to attempt to understand what we are and Where we should be going the average man and woman can no longer afford to pollute the information oncology with the feedings that make themselves feel better at the cost of togetherness we are each of the planet earth and none Is promised we must get better we must not buckle Down on our group identities and tribalistic comforts but rather we must practice Awareness of what we are and What it means to search for meaning the small mouth movements of the ape-like human form words that attempt to describe and decrypt something much deeper that we all have access to the truth of the human heart and consciousness cannot be expressed with words alone in physical reality we have to learn to Look past the world and deeper into the essence of meaning and communication We waste time by creating the reality tv show versions of problem solving we must respect the gift of language by searching for deeper meaning within each word we must choose to [00:05:49] Jacob: Sharpen the ability to possess more than one perception in mind when deciphering the words of another of our brothers and sisters The union we choose to participate in takes work pride courage and ability to change Growth of the planet is at the hands of the human pilot and ignorance can be unwound with knowledge and change To break the fever our society possesses We must each look inward and return to a child like mind why is it that we do the things we do How is it that our individual truth is more true than that of our neighbor how have we arrived at this truth and the truth before that there is really nobody steering the ship Our actions conversations and beliefs have consequences the consequences control our perception of reality and we bring that reality to each interaction with one another our leaders are infected with the same mind virus that threatens us average persons we must work together And meet where we truly are to solve the problem of problem solving itself we have to change the way we have been doing things in that process however messy requires more cooks in the [00:06:57] Jacob: Kitchen the next conversation you have ask yourself if you are holding both yours and the other person's perceptions in mind are you waiting for your turn to speak are you itching to respond with an argument rebuttal that will squash their truth are you actively listening and questioning your knowledge in order to fully allow theirs in are you afraid of change are You fearful of being wrong does your conversation style elicit emotional regulation is your facial expression contorted is Your body language tensed up while the other person speaks do you help them to express their true meaning or do you attempt to stump them so you can win a small victory of words Great problems require different types of conversations and deep understanding of one another's upbringing backgrounds language fears desires and End goals it is time to upgrade and expand our conversation skills as well as the awareness of our own human systems amidst our own conversations let us not allow things like texting and social media to push us to forget that words are simply the tools a human uses to express Something much deeper as our brilliant minds [00:08:06] Jacob: Decipher at infinite lengths and speeds let us not forget the purpose that love can serve with each interaction ask yourself if the mind virus of information is causing your sense-making apparatus to break down in real time by turning every word exchange into debate argument and bad other in this series of [00:08:27] Jacob: Episodes spencer and i will attempt to make sense of what is going on here to cause such great division and confusion amongst neighbors and fellow humans we will stumble and ramble our way to formulating the questions that need asked and the answers that present themselves we will try to police our own bias and emotional states our own judgments our own assessments and our own blind spots as new problems emerge for the human condition we must present and practice new ways of conversation and problem solving neither of us claim to be fully right to be the most educated to know the most truths nor to have the correct psychosomatic tools but we embark on this multiple part series because it is difficult important and we just don't see many trying to meet the confusions from this lens of perception rather than claim the ability to educate the listeners we hope to usher an individual epiphany by way of exploring and widening our own thoughts these conversations will undoubtedly be messy at first but as we determine the correct [00:09:27] Jacob: Definitions and jump from stepping stone to stepping stone we hope the path shows itself and the journey creates sparks of wisdom for different types of listeners at different points of their lives along the way we have no grandiose ideas of being special omniscient or even particularly wise on the subject of sense-making itself but we choose to pick up our swords and proceed towards the battlefield nonetheless if individual sovereignty formulates group coherence and strengthens our human ability to process information and make sense of modern life's complexities This is the way Mr. Spencer jake So today you and i are going to embark On what we think will be a multiple part series um we've just spent the last hour I mean they really last couple days texting back and forth trying to figure out how to have this Conversation figure out how to like what are we even Trying to point at here um the word the term sense-making It has been a huge uh brightness has Been kind of like the title it seems um So i think that what we're going to try to do here is actively think and stumble out loud into [00:10:58] Jacob: What we're trying to even say here which doesn't sound really appealing to listener um here's what we're about to talk about we don't know um but i think that Overall we both see different areas of Division and incoherence In our information ecology and in our Conversations and in the things that we put at the forefront of our attention As far as importance we see Kind of our system Theories breaking down our system um Not making any goddamn sense Um i want to So what we're going to try to do here is this episode i think will be kind of the beginning the precipice of Hopefully the other parts of this series whether it's a five-part series or what a few hours long each couple hours long each whatever it needs to be will start to formulate after this conversation so this one i feel like is undoubtedly going to be messy but we're going to try to stumble through it keep in mind there's no rules to any of this you know nobody wrote a book on how to make sense and we're living in an unprecedented time of [00:12:21] Spencer: Shift structurally the way we communicate as humans our power structures are dissolving you know like this is with the information age and especially what is happening right now with the pandemic being like a non-specific amplifier of all things that were already problems like we're seeing such a boiling up of all these uh systemic and endemic Issues of communication and how we like arrive at truth and we're gonna do our Best to sift through that but i do not think that any one or two men or women could ever Decisively answer the question no doubt and there's also no grandiose ideas in my head and i'm certainly sure to agree that in your head that we're not like the best at solving this problem i am not a genius i am not Someone who like studies all of these things um my entire life i like i presented to you Before i think that i am a creative thinker um and i'm trying to Bring that lens to the table um not a [00:13:22] Jacob: Not a i'm right and here's why i'm right and these people are wrong and here's why they're wrong not a here's my knowledge versus your Knowledge it's more of a term i used earlier um an ushering in of Epiphany so what i want this to do is [00:13:39] Jacob: Spark some aha moments in the listeners Of like huh that is i didn't think that way before or i haven't thought of that perspective or even turn turning the lens in on themselves Of okay i do have a perspective don't i What is my perspective how did my perspective form is it helpful um i I so what we'll constantly try to do Is remember the title like i had said try to as we kind of get going into the weeds as we undoubtedly will we'll try to wind it back out and be like how is this helpful to what we're trying to communicate here so as we're trying to figure out what we're communicating we will also be checking ourselves and we'll be trying to go meta on the conversation and we'll try to referee our own conversation if that makes any sense Spencer i think we should start And feel free to take as much time as you need to on it and feel free to expand or ask any questions to me but you what [00:14:41] Spencer: You were writing is essentially what is truth yes There's a lot of things that we just Take for granted as concepts you know as people especially if you haven't uh engaged in like a lot of philosophical um literature or uh been traditionally Trained which i have not i just this is a hobby i'm just a guy but The very specific definition of words And their connotations is really important to philosophy and with sense-making the ultimate goal To be arrive at some kind of truth correct so what is the actual definition of truth and is it can you even arrive at it like is there an objective truth and with our ability to perceive things Can we find it essentially And I personally don't think that there is an actually objective well there is an objective reality we just can never arrive at it because our human lens is flawed through [00:15:38] Spencer: Uh perception our perception is the rate limiting factor on if we can actually view reality and since none of us are omniscient we cannot arrive at it actually but that should not actually stop us from trying to pursue it as diligently as we possibly Could so you see it in journalism journalists Can never actually arrive at the concrete truth because they like all people are not omniscient But their whole thesis and all their code of ethics says to arrive at the greatest possible truth that you can so just that i think it's a really apt Thing to note because if you haven't thought about it's very easy to think yes this is true this is not i can Definitely arrive at this is concrete but i would like to say that it's much more fluid and not up for interpretation but you need a Like a large vast swath of data and perceptions to arrive at some kind of ubiquitous truth you can't just really arrive at it innately and if you [00:16:42] Spencer: Look at the word in not such a concrete form it really i think opens up the question of how do we arrive at a proper sense-making plan or Do this better because it's going to take just a lot of brain [00:16:57] Spencer: Power to do so and well what do you think truth is do you think you can arrive at objectively Um i don't know because it's Instantly dissolved in different conversations in different um Because we'd all have to have the same perception of reality and the same i guess upbringing in everything to have a common truth um i think that Truth i mean in truth is also An evolving changing thing it's not something that can ever be completely arrived at it's uh As our lives as we are evolution as we are biological creatures as everything here is in movement in constant time um Truth changes so if we think of what truth was um back in roman times it's Now different than what it is now uh um It's as we dissolve Old ways of knowing old belief systems Truth changes along with that i don't Think that truth is something that we're trying to you know as a society discover Like it's just already here it was on planet earth and now that humans are on [00:18:14] Spencer: Planet earth we're gonna find the truth like it's already it's always been there um i think that truth definition Changes based off of what subject you're talking about as well yeah because empiricism actually does technically arrive at some universal truths like laws of physics and whatnot or like two plus two plus four like these are empirically true but i feel like it gets into the weeds and it's way more up to perception and your ability to sense make when it is more social or Sociological structures that are being questioned and the truth that is being arrived at and yes i do believe that is ever shifting but i think that the loose ever shifting Truth uh makes the sense-making question And proposition way more difficult Than like uh two plus two equals four finding a math equation or uh doing anything empirically because it's so open to being shaken up and open to different perceptions and the constant pursuit of it must be [00:19:18] Spencer: Must be had and you have to eliminate bias and dogma to actually do that because one of my favorite lines that i've ever heard is uh Bias and dogma turn intelligence to impotence so if you stop seeking out this truth and find facts and just hold on to them forever You will definitely not gain anything From that and i think it's just a lot of the sense-making problems really come from An inability to be flexible in such a Liquid time of reality like this is way more liquid than any other time we've ever had our like borders are dissolving transnational companies are going everywhere like the power of states is dissolving i mean social media is allowing all of this to proliferate all information just at lightning speeds So not being able to sift through that is a incredible problem that i do not actually have a solution for but i don't think either Of us have a solution for i think that but i think so a lot of the problem is [00:20:21] Spencer: A lot of us assuming that our information is the truth yes like we hear a lot of fake news we hear a lot of facts we hear a lot of um and these things kind of bump against like well that's true or that's untrue um And we're arguing those we're arguing my Truth versus your truth when neither of them are technically the Truth let's say yes um so So let's stay here with truth i Think that if we could bring in some examples of maybe something that we learned back in high school like we're both um raised western culture So let's say when we're learning about the truth of something that happened in world war ii we learned it from a book and they're like this is true but so Um perhaps you can bring in an actual Historic example here after but so what's written in that book i read that book as a student 15 years old Okay this christopher columbus did this blah okay that's true it's true because i read in the book well there was someone who wrote the book [00:21:28] Spencer: Right um there they had their own perceptions Of reality they had their own experiences they had their own information that they read that they Heard um if you just keep following back truth It's like well who told them that how did they learn that um i don't mean to Unwind history but history is subjective History is a lot of times when we're Learning about our history it's not always the history Right um i don't know is there anything in that for you is it dessert uh well yeah that's definitely a good example of how like something that you can hold as true is not necessarily the truth like an idea in general so like there is especially when it comes to cultural perceptions and uh historical context because if you talk to an american and we think about world war ii you think that um you know we won like We are the reason the deciding factor and we did the fighting in world war ii but in actuality if you look at any [00:22:29] Jacob: Of the data or any of the act like any of the ubiquitous historical context from other nations like russia actually did most of the allied Fighting in world war ii they had the most deaths they crossed over the most ground i mean yes we dealt with japan to some degree but you don't hear that here like it's just [00:22:49] Spencer: It is definitely highly up to perception and that's kind of the problem because a lot of these things really just get uh boiled down to narrative and bias like from a higher level so if you have a population like there it's in the best interest of whoever's writing that book to make the country that they're living in look really good right like the government assigns all of this essentially so that can cause a massive sense-making issue and i just think that maybe to combat that you need more information like i said you need more perspectives and then also Being curiously skeptic being a curious Skeptic because if you just i think this is what happens a lot is you see people engaging in a lot of news and if you ever go talk to anyone or read anything about anyone who was like did a propaganda campaign Or has tried to disseminate anything that might be coercive they just try to convince you more of what you already feel they never try to change your mind so it's just the ability to not necessarily follow that And carry on trying to get more [00:23:57] Spencer: Inputs and maybe come to a Truer conclusion but never the truth so Okay so in a lot of these contexts we have to be agreeing on a direction in which we're facing agreeing on upon a direction in which we're going so when in the history book example you're trying to teach the student knowledge so they can better navigate The world let's say so they so they understand why they should be proud to be an american let's say that's the so behind truth there's Always a um agenda isn't the correct word oh Kinda though i don't want it to get mud muddied with all truth being propaganda though i don't want to but all perception has Bias all perception has bias that's helpful yeah so So on zooming out really quick If we are Any information we're trying to teach someone any truth we're trying to communicate there is a reason behind it there's a This will help you in this way or this is this is helpful for humanity in this way this is helpful for our group in this way this is why i'm [00:25:17] Spencer: Teaching it to you and this is why it's truth this is why it's helpful for you to believe it we're trying to stack I believe that perception definitely heavily relies on the idea that whoever is disseminating This information is doing it in good faith and also wants something good for you instead of having an ulterior motive which i think really where we run into issues especially with the ability to disseminate information as fast as social media will allow us to Because now there's not like the Transmission model of communications is not so much in place and it's more ritualistic so communication has kind of become performative and all of these perceptions are an attempt to sway others or appear To others in your group to be like hey look i share those Opinions with you i'm putting them on the internet now we can all be together and we can come together as a group so i don't necessarily think that's very altruistic but it definitely causes a lot of division and it's really hard [00:26:21] Spencer: To step back from that concept because once you decide that you're in a group and you hold all these ideals Uh what are you gonna do you just keep performing and you i mean like your neighbors like they've Got the two conflicting signs politically and they just are bashing against each other like that is performative right like that's not there's nothing signaling it's not a it's not a So why would we signal okay so i guess we'll back up we'll say why would we why would we be signaling but to preface that i gave an example to spencer my neighbors are there's one house that has trump signs all over it and then the house next door their neighbors they have biden and harris signs all over and then bordering between the two there's like a little bit of uh like a couple trees and some grass area um and they have A like stop the donald it's basically [00:27:17] Spencer: Like a hey we're on the side of biden harris but we're also this is kind of a sign that's like attacking the donald the donald trump people and they kind of they scooted that sign over towards the side of the trump people and To me when i see this i don't i Certainly don't choose either side i just wonder what's going on here i'm Just like why is it that this is how we're communicating why is it that of all things that are important out of human life this is what we're spending our time to this is what we're saying i'm putting a flag in the ground this is what i believe and that what they believe is wrong um But so a lot of what's happening here and how we're going to lead this into social media technology is data's algorithm Um our groups our echo chambers these Sorts of things are feeding us things that Lock down our own beliefs so For example in portland um depending on [00:28:18] Spencer: If you're on say the left or the right and that's the media that you follow you don't see things that you don't want to see so or the algorithms don't feed you Things that you don't want to see so there will be so let's say a riot in portland and It'll say that you know it's the left rioting and they're the bad people whatever and you're like what of course like who wants that they're destroying portland but then if you have left side media they're showing right Down the road a couple blocks that same night at the same time there's like a candlelight vigil with people singing and people coming together so which one is the truth we're just being Shown two different things two different things that are happening a block away from each other but one is uh feeding the narrative Of bad other and one is feeding we're Good people and these two people are not watching the same exact news So how do you make sense of that [00:29:14] Spencer: Yeah i mean well you don't honestly which one's true right well i would argue neither honestly neither is the actual truth like if you can't actually arrive with it and i think that you this is a slightly pivot and i apologize but you said you said that just the word why And i think that really informs Like why it's so easy to get lost in the Weeds because a lot of people don't like why am i believing this like what Is the thesis for me to even be fed this algorithm or Lean this way or this way like what is [00:29:51] Spencer: My like what is the goal of civilization like what is the goal of my life do i have um like is it to spread the most human happiness and wealth or like you just people just stumble upon opinions they pick a side and then they fight fiercely for with ever asking or questioning why they even got there in the first place like what is the deconstruction of the idea of like why do we have systems why do we have any of these things you know and it's way easier to navigate all this climate and all this like perceptual untruth truths half Truths if you just have a core tenant that you can abide by that Isn't a tribal tenant and i think it's way Easier to get sucked into all these problems if you just are i'm doing this performatively to align with this side opposed to this is the reason that i Believe these things and no matter what side it's on which there's a [00:30:45] Spencer: False dichotomy by the way to boil down all political thought to left right is absurd and no actual political theorist would ever do it do i actually want am i actually believing these things for a reason or is it just because i've been told to right so okay so i guess we have to come to uh there's a lot there that we can pick up on but i guess even questioning your beliefs is a huge thing so to where you can even get to where this area of conversation where we're even trying to be like what the hell's going on here we have to we're people who question Our beliefs so belief systems how are belief systems Installed in a human brain you grow up And you know so a good example a clean Example that i think a lot of people can agree on is um like kids being racist So the when kids are being racist you see like a video on viceland or something and you see like a seven-year-old like saying the n-word or something and it's clear that he doesn't really [00:31:45] Spencer: Know what he believes he just has been taught it by his parents or by the people around him growing up um i think there's a lot of our belief systems that can be unwound by just saying wait why do i believe this who taught it to me who taught it to them and is it true is it helpful As i'm going about my life is it helpful as i'm interacting with people that are different than me is it helpful for me to continue spreading this saying that it's truth or my truth um what do you have what do you have on That so belief systems i think that it's Important to have people question their own belief systems and i don't think many people especially in our let's just i'll generalize and say our small towns some of the small town mindsets we don't actually question our belief systems we don't question the information that we're given like the new station that you watch is the news right and i think that's what we're [00:32:43] Spencer: Butting up against a lot is we're at a time where it's almost detrimental to the future of civilization in a sense That sounds incredibly intense i understand but if We're not able to question what we're hearing or question what we're because if i'm sitting here watching um cnn fox Whatever it is for six hours a day and then Later on i go have an argument with My bullets and my My weapons have in that argument are the Information i just learned for those six hours of course i'm like what are you talking about like aren't you listening to the same thing as me aren't you understanding the same arguments as me we don't realize that's a bias that's a our belief systems are getting poked and prodded um [00:33:36] Jacob: Yeah it uh it's pretty interesting [00:33:39] Spencer: Because like all this information is being disseminated and you almost certainly find something that confirms your worldview because innately as a human you just don't like it doesn't feel good to really be challenged like this thing that you've been programmed with is just It's your reality so anything that More than not it becomes part of your identity and to actually look in and be like Well why like what is this where did this come from why am i doing this is this even correct especially i mean you have the sunk cost foul so you see in older people a lot they'll be confronted with well Facts i'm air quoting facts or New information that is definitely It's more concrete than what they've been provided before but because they've spent their entire life believing this thing to then turn around And look at the last 50 years of your life and be like i was wrong this thing that i tied myself was incorrect and i may have done some bad things said some bad things been harmful to society actively because i believe these like that is your subconscious will is [00:34:52] Spencer: It won't allow you to do it will reject that so the question is how do you refrain from getting there and i think it would be to be innately skeptical from as young As physically possible because you You're not your political affiliate you're not any of these ideas like these are concepts that are not you and in order For you to make sense of things you lose well you lose the ability to Make sense of things when you start tying yourself down and i see it myself like i'm a super leftist and i have to constantly Fight myself from just knee-jerk snap agreeing with things Definitely it's very hard actually and i'm super aware of it's still hard so what identity is a good corner i Think identity is something we'll have to spend some time on what is identity how is it helpful to the Human creature the you know where the Thing that came after apes however that happened is up to up to speculation i suppose but Like how is identifying with Group dynamics helpful to not only our [00:36:01] Spencer: Survival which is how it started right like you don't want to be like suddenly you're with 150 people and You start disidentifying your You're rejected from the group all of a sudden your life is in danger now you don't have a promised meal now you're kicked out of the group The commune that's been formed um i identity so Let's linger on identities for a bit okay so the on a sociological evolutionary basis The identity is helpful to determine if you fit into the n-group and then survive by assimilating in it so if you can perceive the characteristics of the people around you from a young age and be ingrained with them you're way more likely to have a survival chance and deal with this homogeny better so it I mean you can look at religion so religion if you want to just look at it As like a sociological concept of order opposed to [00:36:58] Spencer: Like a belief system it was really helpful for you not killing your neighbors you know if we both believe in this dude that cares for both of us and that's what tying us together like i'm not going to kill your wife or i'm not going to kill you or steal your kids or do anything really heinous because we live in a community and god is watching over us so it just creates innate order but that is being dissolved like just The ability to go seek outside of that And the isolation that modernity has allowed us to engage in with the internet and uh there's just a new sense of being Able to redefine yourself but i also fit into this like extremely individualist Space and The power structures and tribal behavior That has lasted us up until facebook happened and we've been able to transmit ideas Really quickly is just kind of crumbling in on Itself so people not like we're having an identity crisis as well everyone kind of is and you're having a couple reactions to it so you see [00:38:02] Spencer: Some people see this globalization of the world and how everything's kind of be being intertwined into this like internet hive mind of homogeneous or a Heterogeneous um human thought and that's like holy This is frightening like every power structure That i've ever been inundated with and every idea that i've held really true is just being dissolved on the internet so you react and you get scared and you trip up even harder and you we're really seeing that like build a wall what is that like i'm scared of others we gotta lock down we need order because the structure of society that has prevailed for thousands of years is completely deteriorating right and how do you find an identity in That and then but also Not do that i guess is the question Well so okay so we have I try to always go like what's this step before identity like the one commonality that we have before our race before our gender before blah any of that is we're humanity right we're one [00:39:10] Spencer: Humanity and we seem to be loosening that identity like not keeping that we don't have that identity uh in the forefront of our mind or even the back of our minds as we're having these arguments we're arguing here's what i believe and what um i am Owed because of my identity or what i have been what's been taken from me or what's been Um you know whatever it is we're Buckling down on sides of our identity that are Unhelpful to the overall conversation that are unhelpful to um to actually solving the problems at Hand we are diverting the attention of Important topics by gripping onto our identity and Arguing there um And it's blinding us In ways that we don't seem to understand like we have important people on important podiums who should be having important conversations and they're not talking about anything they're just arguing me versus you rather than us versus the problem and So i suppose that so maybe we have to Say how does identity get in the way Of the future of humanity Well we have to start stop separating on [00:40:29] Spencer: Us versus them level you know like borders are just lines that we've created to justify another you know like we so many things And this is i don't really think it's a fault of humanity it's just how we've survived you just find the in-group you find the in-group like this is what we're programmed to do and it's gonna take a lot of conscious effort from really smart people that are leading things to make this not happen anymore but like that somebody that i know made A really offhanded joke about like some kid in vietnam making his nikes and That to me like the dehumanization of people that don't look like you in other places is um neat it just must stop Because it just is causing a lot of innate suffering and i thought that was such like put such a microscope under it Because once you once that stops being a person like we are never going to be able to co-exist and it you see the political spectrum or [00:41:26] Spencer: American politics are super revolved around identity in general because it's the easiest way to maintain power like it's power dynamics that are really causing this all to happen because if you can convince a whole lot of people that They're on this side and a whole lot of other people that they're on the other side but those sides are actually really close and then they kind of fight each other this manufactures conflict when the actual problem Is the immense coagulation of power in These few people that essentially agree So i just think the perception is wrong Of why we're mad like i think that People are upset because of their material conditions you know life's really hard like our economy and uh are the way That america does capitalism is really oppressive we're overworked we don't ever have any time to actualize and i think this is by design and our two parties insulate themselves so nobody else can get in no new idea is going to get in it's like this old bulwark of potency And until we can kind of rally together [00:42:33] Spencer: And realize hey man the power structures that have been set out in society they do not work for Any of us and that's why we're all mad because if you ever go listen to anyone on the left or right and yeah they have definite differences and they have definitely large world views and what they care about is like their thesis is different if they've arrived at one but ultimately like everyone is suffering because of the system and until we can Make sense of that come to the conclusion that your neighbor with the other flag or whatever is really not the problem at all and maybe figure out what his problems are we're not going to be able to get through it yeah because we're being pitted against each other by old men that basically believe the Same thing and don't care about any of us and until We can make sense of that it's going to be a very large issue but i don't see an end in sight because it is They control the media they i mean the Internet directly profits off of us division and [00:43:32] Spencer: Anger so i watch a ted talk and fake news spreads five times faster and five times more Than regular news so how do you combat that like you would Have to change the monetization scheme of the internet that's the only way like we would have to get money out of all these things or how can we as individuals as just Average everyday people who just work jobs and they just maybe they're not college educated how do we upgrade their sense-making so they can realize like oh okay i'm my My limbic system my human body is Being hijacked here the small walnut Almond size part of my brain is being Turned on right here and pointing me at a bad other and then stepping out wait is that what i really think is that what i really care about of all the things going on in my life right now in my personal existence if i wasn't on the internet my everyday monday through friday [00:44:30] Spencer: The people i interact with what i actually speak about with them is this piece of information that's being fed to me on the internet on facebook actually important to my life as an individual i believe it is not most of the time it's like so how do we so let okay Remember the topic here sense-making how do we how do we upgrade our sense-making as Is it just in an individual survivor so what do i keep messing up with this word sovereignty yeah so i well i Think it the problem is with that i really believe that you are the only thing that maybe potentially can control yourself i mean there's a lot of convincing research on you don't actually have perfect agency over your life but you do have some willpower to assert over it and until like you can personally upgrade your Sense-making and gain some self-sovereignty and Remove yourself from these biases or maybe remove yourself From the propensity to be dogmatic it's Going to be really hard to actually sift through all this cluster storm of information that we were never designed to intake without coming out some kind of tribal [00:45:44] Spencer: Low-minded monster But the problem is with that is If you focus on the individual you never get anything done systemically you know because it's going to be very hard to convince a 7.8 billion people To become self-sovereign especially because the material conditions for a lot of those people are so back-breaking they can never actually end up being actualized So i like how do we how do we combat that you know like what it's going to have to come from the top down or you're we're going to have to have a large grassroots movement to Realize that this is a massive problem and i really think that there's a market for it you know you're seeing a lot of divergent thinkers they i mean they still kind of fall and the what i guess what you would call a plan a you know work within the system but they There's a market people are tired of it people are tired of all this and i really think the longer this goes on people are becoming more in tune with how much that this is polluting all of [00:46:42] Spencer: It and we're going to have to change cc i do agree because i think that we've had this plan a plan b talk before i think that we We're being we can feel the The uprising right we can feel the The unrest we're mad at certain People like you're seeing more and more of the last i mean 2020 has been a good example of um you know we see like the racial equal any inequality we see um the big powers that be like a lot of the hints at uh child pedophiles we see A lot of people like whoa that's wrong that we're mad about that we don't want these people who are in power to be abusing their power in the form of like you know child slavery whatever it is those are intense examples but um We're taking to the streets you know in [00:47:35] Spencer: America at least and even you know in the uk and in certain other places like there are more and more in the last couple years more and more people going to the streets they're mad about these things they're about they're mad about blm they're mad about um uh which So unwinding it from identity I think that how do we get to a place where we're pointing it out the right people we have anger i just don't think that we understand our anger is the thing i think that we're fighting things at such a low hanging fruit level because it's like what we understand it's what we can conceptualize like this is what's wrong this is this is the person that's holding me down but we have to keep looking higher and higher and saying like wait what's the truth of that what's the truth of that what's the truth of that and when we say things like systematic What does that really mean does that mean that the very beginning the very start of how we organize this union how we Organize our society here does that need to [00:48:38] Spencer: Be revamped is it time for that to be Not just broken down but rethought of in Like how do we as humans grow in our brains become More intelligent as we learn new information how do we process this information and how do we because i'm not someone I'm very i'm very like peace love let's get Along but i also understand the need for Sometimes we have to take to the streets sometimes we do have to have some we need to rip people out of chairs Who are refusing to give up their spot right so how do we aim our anger correctly Um without sense-making i don't think There's an answer there i think we have to be able to properly know who is the Enemy here and it's not so much bad other it's not so much um the enemy that my facebook has Told me is the opposite of my beliefs it's The system that we have here is just at A place where it's ran its course like let's say it's time for something It's time for a rebirth of democracy It's time for new leaders which and that's a tricky [00:49:54] Spencer: Word because we never even really have had democracy you know like what do you mean so any consolidation of power is technically ant anti-democratic correct like if we're looking at like a radical democracy as a definition so you have a consolidation of power in Corporations and the government then like this is not Actually showing the will of the people on any real facet correct so democracy i really like to Think about i know it's kind of a pivot but i think it's important it's like water you know there's it's there's phases of it and like radical democracy would be steam like you can't really control steam it just like happens all of a sudden you see like this big outburst but the moment you put things in place to now contain that or keep it Going you ruin the essence of it so it is something that must be fought for forever and i as i look at History i realize this we kind of go from this revolution democratize consolidation tyranny and we're just you [00:50:54] Spencer: See empires fall from it like there's this dysfunction because of our inability to step back from the systems that have been created and say hey there must be a better way to organize this the people that run these things say that they're the best that this is the best like people will say oh you know what the american government perfect like they democracy the democracy that We have is flawless we have all these texts but without ever looking at the root of any of them without ever looking at the root of capitalism like hey is it like are any of these systems actually going to bring us the most human ubiquity and when you are fed by people in power that these are the only way to do it you'll never have any divergent thinking and i think until you can really collectively sense make As like a group of people and remove Yourself of bias and dogma and discern from a at least semi-similar Thesis which is definitely hard to come to i do understand that That these systems are one finite [00:51:57] Spencer: They're not going to last forever and that we need to change them i feel like that there's a human urge to just hold on to things that supposedly work and we must strip that of [00:52:09] Jacob: How we are if we're going to change at the rate the technology is making us change so do you think that we can do this without a war or a civilization collapse because we look at history and we've see it's difficult actually i Think that something happens in a lot of our brains is when we learn about history we read about history we read about the romans we read about um just other civilizations ending or collapsing Or their rain coming to an end whatever it is we don't Bring it into our reality here we don't We can't even fathom or imagine us being in one Of those systems like we that's how we live that's how we form unions that's how we interact and it's why we it's how it sets up the fact that we go to work and we get money and there's banking systems and all this complex when we learn when we read about history it seems like we're almost disregarding history we're doing something weird with history i mean you see these statues being taken down and stuff we're trying to rewrite history which is Very weird that's like our [00:53:11] Jacob: Problem-solving when it comes to i think that there's something happening we intuitively or we there's a lot of us that feel like oh this is breaking and we look at history we don't say okay what did it look like right before their stuff broke how do we realize that we're there in One of those system things and not So back to the beginning of what i just said how do we get to rebuilding something new without A huge either collapse without suffering without war without i mean because we're building up to the collapse of this thing is what's happening yeah i will be intelligent enough to stop that i don't know collectively it's kind of hard because i mean with the ability to transmit information power Structures get upheld way easier because all these people with all this much all this influence all this power are able to shove information in front of your face that is pro their power Essentially right so until we can realize that the power structures that have been put in place are what is actually really the problem and that um people can come to terms [00:54:20] Jacob: With the fact that maybe the myth of american excellency And that we are this is the greatest way to ever order Society may not be true and that there always is something better it's going to be very difficult but it's i don't know how we're going to get past it so i think of i'm not sure if this is Helpful i think of like nationalism and patriotism i think um us Being there's There's a weird difference with and i don't know the exact definitions of either of those two there's this weird definition or difference in we should be very proud Of where we're from it should be like our that's our it's our culture right um we should we should care about our in our community um but we shouldn't say that it's The greatest that's that's unhelpful well this is saying that it's better than the way other people do things is almost an irrelevant thing to say It's not what do you compare why are you comparing it's we're mixing up our pride with what we have with it being better than other things yeah regimes in [00:55:34] Jacob: General or uh governments really profit a lot From a blind hyper-nationalistic population because they can justify basically anything they do i mean look at every war we've been in since vietnam or since world war ii it's been unjust it's been in pure it's been imperialism We're just going for power and monetary gain and we really Because of this hypernationalism are super blind to the atrocities that america commits like in the third world the global south like we just do a lot of damage to the global economy in general and we cause a lot of suffering and until we can erase those imaginary lines and realize that these are people too it's really easy to look at the government as this force for good this american excellency myth right and But how do you unwind that i mean the propaganda machine is so potent so i hate it this is just such a tough Question it really is like how do we really make sense of everything while everything in the world is completely falling apart [00:56:34] Spencer: Not in like a catastrophic sense but in the way that we used to do things like sovereign powers nations are no longer like this bulwark of order anymore Like with this hyper communication and the way that the economy works in a global fashion we're going to have to find a situation find a way to situate In our in the world and make sense for ourselves that involves others outside of our country it's just gonna have to happen right so How do we hmm yeah because we still try to Apply a political lens to even that like uh i don't know if it's exactly the definition but for like globalism or um like where People are so against ubi those sort of things um I think that undeniably where we're at As a humanity on a planet i think that we Have just advanced to the point where we have to work together as a globe in some sort of weird sense but not just through the lens of capitalism not just How do we it's not just trading Agreements it's i mean We have we have global warming and we have um [00:57:50] Jacob: We have issues that i think i've used this example in one of our conversations before we have in game of thrones you've watched game of thrones yes i have so we're fighting over thrones and we're trying to like handle things in a democratic view but they we have the white walkers coming right the white walkers being um an existential Threat next essential threat right so how do we Realize that the way that we're handling things is actually ignoring the existential threat and just We're throwing it out the window like with step one into our conversations when we like call each other names or we define ourselves as red or blue or any of those things and the existential threat doesn't give a if we're red or blue or left or right or uh we're proud to be from this country or probably from that country like everybody dies here [00:58:41] Spencer: Well yeah i think we're going to have to lean into intellectualism a lot more there's a lot of people that lean into anti-intellectualism so like a blatant disregard for like empirical science which i understand you can insert bias and dogma into science but it's like way more resistant than any other structure that we've ever had ever so when you as a power structure Have the ability to say hey global warming is not happening and now you create a populist that thinks that as well so now you get that 50. so now we can't even agree on the fact that there is an existential threat just because communication is so quick yeah that's a huge thing we can't agree on the fact that there's an existence that's a problem yeah so that's i think that's where we really get into the weeds of division is because you have agitators or Interlocutors or in interlocutor [00:59:27] Jacob: Yes somebody that engages in a dialogue Is the definition of that word but that because that they have corporate interests that go against dealing with this existential threat convince a subset of the population that it's not happening because that subset of the population is way more vulnerable to believing that [00:59:47] Spencer: Because it aligns with the worldview so now you're having your worldview weaponized against you and the world is dealing with massive Existential problems i mean global warming global inequality uh we're having a lot Of exploitation in the global south uh it's just there's like a lot of human suffering that's happened and because you've clung so tightly to your worldview and haven't been able to seek out any [01:00:10] Jacob: Other perspective you now are completely immunizing immunized to seeing that there is an issue and i think that's what the problem is once you come to terms with the fact that you have a system that is you think it's the best and you Don't want to change it's bad like there can always be [01:00:30] Spencer: Something better and i think that we just get really stuck in our ways that way and it's very easy to convince people like a system that's technically working for them that they in their regular life because your perception is not reality you know like the anecdote of your life does not line up with how the world is if you can find that person that is susceptible to not believing these big problems it's really easy to weaponize it against them until we can make enough sense of all this to as objectively as physically possible Look at what the what is humanity really facing like what are these big issues where It's going to be very hard to deal with them yeah i'm trying to i'm trying to think Of where so i feel like we so far we've sounded We've definitely we sound very left Which is okay um but i'm trying to how Do we continue to appeal to just any human on A human level how do we explain things like perception how do we how do we let's even maybe Unwind even farther um [01:01:38] Spencer: Let's talk about even reality like what is our reality and how do our perceptions change what our reality is and how is Again that points to truth like how is that more or less truthful than the person next to you so i mean even going to five sense Reality like our like what we're doing here uh j just how a Bat has his two ears um The way that he sees and navigates the world a bat's reality is formed by echolocation he uses this ear and this ear bounces sound off walls and that's how he navigates where he's going we have our reality here by our five senses our touch our sight hearing our smell whatever I think we unwinding it back that far And then our upbringing our culture Our environment that we grow up in Our the different systems in our Body being feeling safe or unsafe how do all of these things create our perception um i know that's incredibly unspecific i just left you with a of trying to answer a question that's not really a question but um [01:02:49] Spencer: I'm just trying to i'm trying to remember our overall goal here sense-making right um how is seeing how we all have Different perceptions helpful to our sense-making and what Really is perception i guess It's uh i mean well you use your five senses to engage with reality and you internally reference that to Experiences that you've had in the past and what you deem is correct based on what you've already believed so and it was really Self-referential so that's why Perception is not reality because you will usually see what you want in life and the most information and you'll seek out what you want But oh i got to think about this for a second It's a very tough question Until you can come to terms with the fact that your immediate perception and reality is not actually how the World is in a ubiquitous total sense Very hard to combat that in general So like because with truth not being This complete absolute deductive firm fact It's very hard for society to come [01:04:11] Spencer: Together and agree on a lot of things and i don't really know how to remedy that but because if we go look back at the thesis statement for what we want at all these structures i think it really comes down to being able to question all of them in general It's going to be really hard to align our human effort if we can't come to terms with what we want out of humanity as a As a collective conscious species and the differences in Perception it brings diversity and that's very good and i find this to be a really difficult contradiction Because diversity is unequivocally good and all actual empirical research diversity brings way more good than it Brings bad but having a homogeny of ideas makes Order much easier so i guess it's like what do we do [01:05:04] Jacob: Yes i'm very this is very hard to answer I'm really stumbling through this so i apologize no i mean i set you up for an Impossible spike i guess i'm trying to think of how we can unwind it with examples i guess i was thinking um something that popped into mind was The movie tarzan actually tarzan grew up Raised by raised by gorillas raised by Monkeys um when he comes Into reality with like proper People they're drinking tea they have etiquette these sort of things they're flabbergasted by his actions they're like wow what you're eating with your hands you're such a barbarian whatever um These tarzan doesn't know that what he's Doing is wrong okay he does it because it's not inherently wrong it's just when he exists within their proper Culture it's improper it's not But what we but what we do here this might be leading something what we do is we say bad other you say That's bad or good so um tarzan doesn't do the things that We do so he's bad he can't participate in what we have going on here um i don't know how to really relate [01:06:25] Spencer: That to I think that i think that we've hit a strange almost dead end of what we're trying to Explain so how do we how do we in continuing the conversation how do we unwind where we're at and go back to what's Important sense-making Explaining bias i really so Just with the sense-making question in General just hard to see so much division even though i cleanly fit on one side of it just in general i came to you know this is a little bit of a vivid but on the way driving here i kind of realized that the way that i look at politics sometimes i think that i've got my in group and we have a Definitive goal the goal is to bring the most human Ubiquity and Stop the stop suffering and exploitation That's the goal you know we want to dissolve power Structures so people are not living in any kind of tyranny and just genuinely as a collective support each other like stop the individualism we have come to terms with the fact that We need each other to live innately and we don't need to [01:07:50] Jacob: Engage in all these systems that are archaic and exploitative And then there's another group of people that are hyper individualistic and they think that this um this system is really good that it's The ultimate proving ground and i've always kind of disregarded Them as like another you know Like it's easy to dehumanize these people because you feel like they're going against your thesis you know like if this is what i believe and i believe that you know like this is what i want for humanity and this person believes the opposite you do the math and you say this person doesn't want this for humanity which may be true i don't know i don't know their thesis or if they've come to one even on their own but it's really easy to dehumanize people like that and so as i was thinking i'm like no matt even if i get what i want these people still need to be served by society you know they're still they're not going to go off on some ship you know we need them right to be involved in This but how do we get to the ubiquity [01:08:46] Jacob: Of wanting the same end goal hmm That's true yes because it's not like How do we prove to them that what we want is more important than what they want it's how do we continue this Human experiment And continue coexisting i guess yeah how do we accommodate everyone and i really think it comes down to being able to maybe not even agree on the facts or agree on the end goal but be able to [01:09:17] Spencer: Actually discuss it outside of this performative like battle of tribes Okay right reinforcement that we see on the internet because you see all these all like all with the twitter wars whatever you get on any social media you see any arguing it's people are not arguing to stomp this other person well they are but they're arguing to stop this other person in front of people they already agree with because hey look i owned xyz you know yeah it's um it's a reinforcement it's not um It's not going forward i know it's so cheesy because it's like no loaf no right before but really like as much as i don't like It or do like it people that starkly disagree with me also participate in society and i really care about their well-being i genuinely do i just think that their ideas aren't going to bring them that and my ideas will i don't know if that's everyone's thesis i don't know if people actually care about others some people but and i don't know how they came to that is programmed as well but [01:10:18] Spencer: How do we accommodate all of this and realize what the real problems are so that is the ultimate sense to be made is uh we're all in this together as a massive collective and how do we come together to deal with it so what so what is we can point out what is unhelpful to this and some things that are unhelpful i think of you know terms like um so and so owns blah or libtards or Uh um like Name calling so basic conversation basic problem solving um you see this in uh we all know Probably a someone who's in a relationship who they're on and off again and they're always arguing and they get to these mean ends of arguments sometimes i mean not everybody does this but sometimes we'll see people who are couples and they love each other very much and we know they love each other but they get to these edges of conversation where they're both so angry in there and they're just so They just start attacking each other [01:11:18] Spencer: It's yeah it's kind of like this like you your mom's fat or like okay big nose okay like we start attacking each other on these really low level really low consciousness like weird attacks and that's where We're meeting each other at to discuss important conversations i think I mean i don't want to get just stuck in politics but we look at the The recent um debate We're forgetting what a debate's for we're trying to like we end up they end Up just insulting each other the whole time joe biden and trump they end up just attacking um here's what you did wrong Here's what you did wrong here's um that at one point trump like attacked Biden's son or something like that and then vice versa it just it gets to the point where as i'm watching it i'm like how is any of this way of Conversation helpful to what we're trying to do here as humanity what is the point of this what is the point of the debate so we choose the best leader what's the point of a leader so we have someone who uh gives us all [01:12:23] Spencer: A better life a good life and you know uh lowers the chance of suffering for people in our in this society um and you keep climbing up and it's kind of just like we all want love right um We are digressing our conversations Because of this like slam culture um That social media seems to be clickbait viral slam culture yeah and it's so okay so what's happening social media and our today's media the technology is It's really fueling a Shitty way of discussing it's really Fueling a mean way of talking about other people Who are different than you and it's incredibly unhelpful it's childish it's immature it's um it's It's throwing dirt on what we're trying to do here which is prosper not have suffering not like none Of w we don't meet on the places we agree We find weird places where we can insult each other and it's coming to this schoolyard bullying version of news media headlines And stuff like that um yeah i As much as i say i want cohesion i do think actual disagreement and criticism is super important for actually coming to a end goal that is good [01:13:49] Spencer: Like this debate and these you shouldn't attack people ad hominem is like a fallacy like it's unacceptable debate but if you if they have an idea that has Blatant problems and you have an idea that's going to fulfill the same goal but do better that's good you should say that we need to actually have smart people need to actually be having debates right definitely and we can being divisive is Fine as long as we're still coming to Like it's like i guess we just need the Same end goal you know and it's how do you convince a bunch of people what the same end goal is going to be you know what do we want out of society and i think it's hard because nobody even asked that like why do we have a government why do we have any of these things it's huge yeah why nobody asked that why do we have a government yeah what is the role of the government why do we order society in this way and how do we deconstruct it to maybe come to a ubiquitous angle where we all do the best instead of [01:14:45] Spencer: And you know you know i'm getting what i want because not even because i necessarily want it but it's because of what you don't want you know like it's this own the lib own Own the alt-right kind of thing where it's like i'm only taking the stance because it's gonna piss you off it's not because i actually have an end goal with it and we get trapped in this uh i actually hate the culture war because it takes away from the big systemic issues like uh Inequality just in general Racial monetary like these things that Create human suffering just having a pissing match with each other really takes away from dealing with that and you can even take a step further to existential problems we spend all day with our dick in our hands yelling at somebody else that's honestly really similar to us and we're never going to get there and we're never going to ask our leaders to get there because they're using the media to make us fight against each other yeah and i mean the social dilemma [01:15:44] Spencer: On netflix is a good example of kind of the wrong things that are being fueled like the uh all right our addictions to being Um uh what's the word Affirmed to our addictions to Validation um are Are leading us farther down it's like oh okay that gets the clicks feed them more of it that gets them on the on the platform longer feed them more of it the our systems are being hijacked In this way so first step is knowing we have to have a large swath of the population realize this and i was talking about this with my stepfather you know you have this pendulum right You get social media comes in It swings and swings and swings and it disrupts society a lot i mean we can either realize at some Point in time that this is so destructive for the fabric of reality [01:16:40] Spencer: And our collective conscious and what we're trying to do as a society even if we haven't decided on that there are some general themes we want people to just do well you know everybody wants to feel good everybody wants to be secure we either you know it swings back and we realize hey this isn't it and this goes out of fashion until they realize that they need to monetize it differently because it really is the money that is the issue i find money to be a massive issue in most of these problems government social media it's the way it's monetized Or this ball falls off this handle and we dive deeper into it and no sense is made and we self-destruct because at this point it's either self-termination or elimination of the way social media is there's no in-between we you cannot we cannot carry on making sense in the way that we're currently doing or the lack thereof It's just i think that [01:17:28] Spencer: Documentary was terrifying and it was also enlightening and i'm glad that it caught so much traction right from everyone like anyone that i knew that saw it like my stepdad stopped using social media yeah i think it actually had a compounding effect yeah it's important it's important that we have dissenting opinions that are not politically charged that just completely ridicule the way things are because you still well i mean Everything's innately political but every single levy against structured society is really heavily politically charged which is really hard to get around but things like that are not it's like hey we're all suffering from this like this has to change or we're never going to make sense of anything yes what we used to have is never coming back but we can find a way to go forward better than this because un indefinitely we must live together yeah you can't just eliminate people that don't agree with you yeah it's not about the left winning or The right winning it's about we have a place where people of differing opinions all exist how do we make that work [01:18:31] Spencer: I think we get caught up with my side versus your side but it's like no dude both sides must coexist or none of Us exist yeah and it's easy to get into the weeds Though because if you're like you know if this is my thesis and this side doesn't want this that's bad you know i think that my ideas are going to bring the most human happiness and joy and there's somebody that disagrees with me holy so it's so hard to not get trapped into it well so can we say that what's more Helpful for the prosperity of humanity is people thinking about People not just thinking about themselves but thinking about all of us yeah i'm not an individual that's really okay i feel like a paradox because i Had one hand feel pretty deterministic And i didn't get to choose nature and nurture in my life and i was born and everything that happened to me was a cause and effect of that and how much agency do you really have over the real world but i also feel [01:19:32] Spencer: Like i'm the only thing in my life that i can control and i must master myself to affect Reality and have my agency over the world in a way that's positive but on the other hand politically i'm a collectivist if my neighbor does better i do better you know if civilization does good i do good like the rising tide lifts all boats like it's getting away from the competition of the way we structure things to come to a cooperation like we all labor for a reason it's Because we need things as a society it's not just to make money because we're just generating wealth we're not laboring to help everyone like how it's always been we've stepped away from the agricultural Like once feudalism started we stepped away from this you know you have a farm and you feed the community and we come together we work on this and it's a there's a great sense of um pride in it and once we got to a Like a capitalistic economy you now are [01:20:25] Spencer: In direct competition to make somebody a lot of money that you don't you don't really care about you're so disconnected from this so if we can reorganize labor and the way we structure all this to where if your neighbor does good you do good and everyone believes that and these people in vietnam are just as important as your neighbor we can actually come together and have more ubiquity but it's getting people there with all the propaganda machines getting people to realize that this is the goal of civilization right is for us to prosper so how do we How do we encourage people to think as individuals how do we encourage people to question everything that they're listening to question everything they're reading question the people even closest to them with what they're saying question their parents question What's the incentive for people to Ask huh do i really believe this Before going out to the streets about it And going and buckling down on our Identities is it becoming familiar with um [01:21:29] Spencer: I mean i think that mindfulness has helped me an incredible amount with this area kind of just observing my thoughts and like what am i thinking and then i'm able to question them separate myself from my thoughts and then see like wait where does that come up is that an influence that of a video that i watched earlier is that influence of something that i read am i reacting because my identity feels Threatened how can i separate my um ego identity in The culture from what i actually believe in and also apply to it this filter of also Is this helpful is this Is this going towards the same direction That we should be all going towards which is humanity continuing yeah [01:22:13] Spencer: I think that just being super aware is really important but it's really hard i mean in the west we're super tied to identity in general like our culture is just very centered around a strong sense of self which makes it way harder to combat this because you see like eastern countries don't really have a problem with this honestly not like we do i mean they have division and they have authoritarians and like bad governments but they don't have This fierce internal turmoil and i think Just being able to remove yourself from Ideas because they're not you and analyze them And just to ruthlessly seek truth regardless if you like the answer right because ultimately if you come to a realization or there is a study like a real empirical data that proves You wrong that doesn't change the fact that it's true i mean yeah the media literacy is a big problem too just being able to like actually analyze media which just takes education so you're gonna have to like work on it but trying to construct a reality [01:23:12] Spencer: Outside of your twitter feed um realizing that this thing that you are not look that you're looking at is not reality right it's definitely not it's even less reality than what you see in your daily life you know this is like a curated constructed click bait Scrolly blue app you know that is just Made to hold you there and it's going to confirm all your biases and taking a step back and realizing that is definitely the first step but It means self it's so cliche but just self mastery being you must be the mat you're self-sovereign you've got to be the master yourself or you're going to fall for all of these things i think a huge thing to point out and that is Self-mastery and self-actualization and Just trying to become a better person whatever that might mean to you as an individual i think a lot of what we need to understand as Individuals is you can change you aren't [01:24:12] Jacob: Just the way that you are we always try to define ourselves well this is the way that i am and this is exactly what i think it's like well is the way that you think helpful is it Harming you is it harming other people this is what my dad thought so i think this yeah and that is the death of i mean once curiosity dies that is the Death of growth yeah absolutely so we need to bring back that child-like mindset of you know we all have like nephews and stuff or we have just the younger people in our life who we've seen they just ask why what's that why what's that we need to go back to that i think as adults because we're faced with this crazy amount of data with the social media era the internet era the whatever the hell media is now is We need to upgrade our sense-making Abilities so we can actually make sense of what we're taking in because we're just taking it in and then fighting people who don't take in the same stuff as us yes you got to find out a why too for [01:25:07] Jacob: Yourself like why do you believe the things you do and what is the end goal of your life and everyone's life collectively so what's the goal of humanity like massive questions like what's the goal of humanity like what is the agency i'm gonna enthrust upon the world to make it better right you know it's so easy to get in the mindset of just generate money just didn't you forget Like i'm i have human excellency somewhere inside of me that is definitely more than just this rat race Money monster like i could be here to do something Better than someone else could you know like i am a i'm uniquely special and there's something there's a niche in the world that i can fulfill if i get actualized enough to really make a difference and getting away i mean it's i know it's way harder than it sounds but i guess it just comes down to Self-actualization set your goals and ask why a lot yes You got to question all these structures you got to set your goals for the agency that you're going to push over the world and i don't know man [01:26:13] Jacob: I think something that we can that we can end on here is something that helped me was [01:26:20] Spencer: Learning about like what are ethics and What are my ethics what are values and what are my values what are my values and how did i learn them have i ever really thought about them what could be my values that would be helpful to me going forward philosophy hugely like changed changes My perspective um it makes me I it points really within a lot which is Sometimes painful which is sometimes uh makes you see Parts in yourself that you don't like makes you see things in the past that you've done or said that you don't like but i think that when you're able to stand up say okay i'm willing and choosing to change my beliefs about those things now i'm willing and choosing to hear going forward i'm going to do these things and i think that learning about ethics morals values a lot of things that i say Throw the baby out the bathwater when a lot of people just don't really believe in religion now a lot of people our age there's a [01:27:17] Spencer: Lot in religion that was only kind of taught in that area that like school doesn't really touch and i think if you're not in school any Longer i invite you to study These things values ethics morals philosophy they teach you about yourself in ways that you didn't know existed um and you study philosophy Heavily too so answer do you have anything to add to that to anybody who maybe they're maybe we sparked something in them maybe they're like i don't know i've never really questioned my beliefs that much where could they go how can we begin to change the way that we think the socrates said that the ends the uninspired life is like not living at all or something synonymous with that and until i know i always every time i come on a hammer that people should engage in philosophy and i guess i don't give a lot of actionable tips on doing so but it's There is wisdom like the way to live a Good life and the way to analyze reality and [01:28:20] Spencer: Just concepts in general has been thought about since people started writing and there is it's just already out there all you have to do is engage in it and i would highly recommend it has Changed me forever you become more worldly more ethical you care more about people and you understand the nuance of just a lot more things in context to Ancient wisdom and modern science if you can engage in These abstract thoughts and it's definitely is difficult but it is been the most helpful thing for curating a worldview that is um helpful and guiding me Through what i need to do with my life more than anything and i think when you can come to terms with that sense-making is all easier because we have a goal There's a there's actionable steps you have a goal in mind you understand reality better than you did before because you're now questioning it and you've seen other perspectives and it doesn't it inspires divergent thinking as well because you're engaging in all these all the greatest thinkers who have ever lived who say different things but they all [01:29:18] Jacob: Have excellent points and being able to just have this amalgamation of all these ideas and kind of figure out what's going to work for you and what you think reality is to be really important yeah just For all of humanity and i really [01:29:33] Spencer: Hammer home education like you just got to continue to learn about stuff because when you stop learning about stuff you become the Unchangeable old man who has all the Opinions of the past you know you must be fluid just like the times you know there's been more change in the last 50 Years or since the industrial revolution than there ever has in human history and if you can't remain flexible as the Times are you are most destined to have a worldview that is not excellent unhelpful yes yeah i Completely agree um i think that's a good place to End it i think uh so what we'll try to maybe assess A summary um on an individual level Not amidst the podcast but i think that we've um exhausted our minds by trying to figure out what we're even trying to figure out here i think that we did well i think that we um did what we could and i like i said i think this is going to be a multiple part kind of series on the Junkyard Love Podcast because i believe that it's important i believe that [01:30:39] Jacob: There really is a sense-making crisis there's a sense-making emergency and we all have a personal Responsibility and i don't know i mean i a lot of people listen to the podcast are um our age a little bit older Um and i think that a lot of us see what's going on and we are kind of like what the what the is happening here and upgrading our sense-making and Understanding why it is that we think what it is that we think is going to be able to help us gain more Intelligence more knowledge and then in turn the people in our families the people who we work with the people who we interact with the ways in which we interact with each other we can ripple effect this out So um so i'm gonna just drop a couple [01:31:26] Spencer: Philosophers that uh might be interesting to people right so there's a Stoic philosopher named Seneca i really like him he was a former slave in greece or rome i can't remember him but he is his best student wrote all the stuff down but that's really uh helpful for self mastery just Stoicism in general i mean there are flaws to every ideology and you must realize that when you engage in philosophy but it has helped me quite a bit for analyzing Power structures and just tyranny itself there is a modern philosopher probably the last 80 years Her name is Hannah Arendt she wrote a book on tyranny it's just um it's very prolific and good uh frederick Nietzsche wrote on a lot a lot of topics human Suffering um what is reality like just big concepts he was generally like a renaissance man of philosophy i don't actually condone or agree with all the things that all these people have said but they are very good perspectives for different time periods Different eras and different parts of your life and i recommend checking them out yeah [01:32:26] Jacob: Definitely and then a good way to check them out like don't think like okay do i need to enroll in a class do i need to go to the library and get these books like do any of those things if you'd like but nowadays we have youtube to me is i'm always pointing people i know it's overly obvious i know it seems like this like silly little thing because that's where you watch uh like ryan unbox his favorite toys and your kids watch the shark doo whatever baby shark like youtube is full of information and It really is something that like do not underestimate youtube there's so many different schools of thought on youtube and there's a lot to learn and you don't have to actively sit there with a pen and paper just put it on and learn something new and expand your knowledge there's plenty of places Philosophize This after school um uh the Stoa Uh i don't know there's just tons of Places on youtube being curious was free being curious [01:33:18] Jacob: It's free so is youtube so that goes pretty well you just gotta engage in it yeah so check out some things literally type in go to youtube and type in philosophy and if you like the video subscribe to them look at their other videos just follow your bliss and Upgrade your sense-making um Listener take care of yourselves as always love yourself Please stretch please Drink some water um Spencer it's been great i love and appreciate your friendship man thank you for embarking on this very difficult very strange corner of Conversation that we're attempting to have here and i hope we somehow get a Little further on it in the next part and do our best Jake thanks for having me yeah peace out That's so difficult