The JYLP Episode 078 with Conflict Resolution Coach Jerry Fu - Be Free From The Fear Of Conflict

[00:00:00] Jerry: I know what kind of leadership training i wish i'd had uh in my early 20s Uh late 20s even early 30s and so to Kind of go back down that path and say hey guys you know i've skinned my knee plenty of times trying to find my way forward and now you know let me do my part to help you Not shy away from your challenges or even provide all the solutions but to give you the resources uh so that you Can be more confident in the solutions that you come up with for yourself as you deal with life's inevitable challenges

[00:00:32] Intro: Knowledge is power

[00:00:32] Jacob: To kind of resent ourselves you know what would What would make this the best podcast ever for you um i like that question that's a good that's a good intro question um I think just um Reachable for the for the average person I like to kind of not to overly we don't Have to really stay into the weeds and overly dumb things down but i like to try to treat it as um Remembering that the listener could be some someone young or someone who has really never experienced um you know leadership or conflict resolution before or that maybe they're maybe they're new to this whole way of thinking so just basically like keeping our beginner in mind let's say that yeah that's perfect um just to

[00:01:36] Jerry: Dovetail on that right all right are you familiar with the Hemingway App at all or no i don't think so the Hemingway App i learned about recently from another coach and so what happens is that it Rates like the difficulty of your writing and if it's overly technical Like it'll tell you like this is grade six seven eight nine and it actually like forces you to kind of like simplify It down so that a sixth grader can understand it's it's pretty uh it's pretty amazing you're like i can't believe i went through all this training just still like dumb down my language but yeah to lessen the Complexity of the words that i'm using yes so sometimes i'll even notice that i will um i don't know i don't know if maybe it's because we'll be listening to someone

[00:02:17] Jerry: Who's using a lot of big words or we're listening to someone explaining it in a certain way so we'll use it i'll listen to myself back on podcasts and i'm like well i could have delivered that exact same sentence in 10 words less but i added all these complicated words um but yeah no like of Course we can feel free to expand and Go as intricate as we'd like but it's always like to remember that the little guy you know just in case curse of knowledge man absolutely you're just like oh because i mean we do that in pharmacy school we're like we learn all this technical knowledge and then we actually have a book on like pharmacy terms for the lay person like you actually have to like go through that process you're like oh i'm up here and they're like we don't know what that is and you're like okay

[00:02:55] Jacob: Yeah the person's at the counter like can you explain that one more time but just with a lot less words yeah let me tell you the path of physiology on this just like what does that even mean i feel like sorry about that it makes you feel better right cool all right jerry um so let's uh just double check In we are recording i'm recording my Audio excellent so ladies and Gentlemen Welcome to the Junkyard Love Podcast i'm happy you're here today i'm Here with jerry hello jerry i'm Happy that you're here um Let's go ahead and just start right out the bat with A little bit of your bio um who you are What it is that you do and uh

[00:03:35] Jacob: And what we're gonna kind of chat about today

[00:03:35] Jerry: Absolutely so the ten word or less Answer uh i had to give for another Pre-interview podcast was um i help Asian-American leaders handle conflict Resolution better uh through coaching That works yeah that works why the emphasis on Asian-American leadership yeah so What we like to say in coaching is that Our ideal client is usually who we were 10 years ago and in my leadership journey which i'm Sure we'll be able to unpack over the next hour so um you'll See just exactly how i got into this space but the biggest uh and or the Biggest point i'm trying to make here is just that i know what kind of leadership Training i wish i'd had uh in my early 20s uh late 20s even early 30s and so to Kind of go back down that path and say hey guys you know i've skinned my knee plenty of times trying to find my way forward and now you know let me do my part to help you not shy away

[00:04:43] Jerry: From your challenges or even provide all the solutions but to give you the resources uh so that you can be more Confident in the solutions that you come up with for yourself as you deal with life's inevitable challenges

[00:04:54] Jacob: Right yeah my um my ex used to Always remind me and i always really liked holding on to it when it came to the podcast and these leadership things um or giving advice what would my what Would my 16 year old self need to hear And so i'm always kind of trying to remember that and the way i'm wording things or i'm rambling on i always try to remember okay that's kind of who I want my audience to be if i for whatever reason was 16 and stumbling through youtube and i found you know me What would be the things that i would need to hear so yeah i think i think that reigns true you know when we're when we're speaking to our own individual experience and it Could help um us relate with people a Lot more so um what is So How did you get into this world let's go right there what was uh what was the series of events that kind of led you to where you're at now certainly yeah let's uh let me let me

[00:05:44] Jerry: Start from the beginning Let's you know it'll it might not make sense at first but as the as the uh the play

[00:05:52] Jerry: Unfolds you'll be able to see where everything comes in so um yeah Brace yourself right like they Got the whole 90 minutes let's paint the whole canvas um

[00:06:02] Jacob: Yeah so basically i grew up Uh the son of immigrants uh i still Technically am the son of immigrants but Uh you know we grew up with The asian mentality of success where It's like hey find this profitable Reputable job and that way you get money and Respect and you need to bring that not only for yourself but for your family because you know this is as immigrants This is what we have to fight for and so With that mentality right i by default Felt like an outsider and You know in feeling like an outsider and Trying to get along with people and just

[00:06:42] Jerry: Trying to do my best to fit in right you start to kind of get in some bad habits like people pleasing like just trying not to upset anybody or when someone's upset with you know you placate them as best you can even if it comes at great cost to your own self-respect And you just feel resentful later and you just say well hopefully i'll get over this so all that to kind of set the Stage properly to say hey um my parents kind of said well you know Go into healthcare pretty much it was Like yeah like you want to be a doctor right your cousins are doctors and you know you want the good life that comes with uh doctor reputation and income and I said yeah sure you know i didn't like anything else so i just said well yeah let me try this Pre-med path for right now and when i got to college i learned quickly just how Uh little i actually Uh was interested in pursuing this

[00:07:33] Jacob: Partly because i got to see an organic chemistry you know and it was just kind of like uh oh right if you have if you Don't have a clear idea on why you want to become a doctor right if you don't have a clear idea to say hey i want to help you know malnourished kids in like third world countries right like you're not going to power through all the hoops that you have to jump through in becoming a doctor and i had friends That did and so you know happy that they got the career that they're looking for to fulfill their what they consider their own purpose but for me Uh i it was a definitely a sobering moment i had to ask myself well what do i really want to do um at that stage in My life because i still wanted to do health care but i didn't like the idea

[00:08:12] Jerry: Of failure i didn't like the idea of you know getting wait-listed or even rejected from med school and so i just really was like i don't want to persevere that much i like the idea of being a doctor more than actually becoming a doctor doing the work with that so i said well you know Uh pharmacy seems like a good profession uh it seems Very clean and with the right job you can get pretty good hours and quality of life so i said you know what my grandpa being a doctor i had some Interest in health care so maybe this is Just another way in so let me pursue pharmacy school and in pharmacy school managed to you know get the grades i needed to got licensed and all that to say in the Pharmacy work settings that i was used to which is mainly chain pharmacies uh Leadership was not something that was Um desirable because it just seemed like It was a lot of headaches For not a lot of extra money it's just

[00:09:09] Jerry: Like you had all the scrutiny all the liability you had to deal with bosses that were yelling at you about numbers being low or you know things not going According to plan and you and you just said well you know what i'm my life isn't worth these headaches so i'm just gonna avoid them and it's nice to learn how to fly under the Radar a little bit but at the same time You're not growing right i got comfortable um working for this chain pharmacy after i got out of school and just being you Know kind of a bigger fish in the smaller pond and my boss my boss was happy with me because she knew i worked hard um but i wouldn't want i would Never be interested in taking on a leadership position in a chain pharmacy just because there's just yeah too many headaches and so at a point where i was At five years with this company but i've had enough i just said you know um i don't care what

[00:09:59] Jerry: Kind of benefits you're throwing at me it doesn't matter that i just earned a third week of vacation if the other 49 suck right like i'm not Going to stick around and so the interesting thing was i had gotten comfortable and you know i was able to avoid conflict and even though i've struggled with conflict at that point in my life you know i was just like well i'm bad at it i'm just gonna not deal with it same thing with leadership i said oh you know i tried a couple of times i'm not good at this i guess i'll never be good at this i just had a very uh limited view Of my capabilities as a person uh with Certain things that i struggled with initially and so when i decided to leave This job to pursue something in teaching Because i hadn't been more intentional with my career choices and development i Didn't really have any options because i didn't have any postgrad training in order to become a professor at a university or things like that uh but my one lifeline

[00:10:51] Jacob: Was a friend who worked for a consulting company a pharmacy consulting company uh Here in houston and she said hey i know You want to teach you don't have The presidency or the postdoc in order to teach at a conventional university but my previous teaching position is open since i got promoted would you be interested in applying for this and i said absolutely so i'm moving from

[00:11:12] Jerry: Tennessee to houston for this job i walked away from Full-time you know pay and benefits to Take on this part-time position and i would have to earn my way up and Initially being as short-sighted as i was i said wow this is hopefully the last company ever have to work for i'm going to houston i got some friends here You know i was just so excited for the change and then 11 months later i got fired And you know that was uh At the time it was the toughest wake-up call i'd ever got because i didn't want to admit that i had there was some sense Of you know feeling entitled and making Excuses that were kind of bubbling to the surface because i was able to do better than like 60 of my you know workforce at This chain pharmacy but now when my own Flaws are magnified all of a sudden this company was actually kind enough to tell me after 11 months no what you're doing is not working and you're done here and

[00:12:06] Jerry: So um at the time it hurt a lot because

[00:12:10] Jerry: What was it going to do right rent don't stop just because you had a bad day And so uh looking for work in a city i didn't have a lot of career networking in was very Difficult and that's when the roller coaster started to get really weird in that uh the next job i ended up at I was working for a basically house of cards pharmacy where filling for crooked doctors and my paychecks were bouncing so that was also Not great yeah just one two punch right you're just like not only am i jeopardizing my license i'm not even paying my bills because this guy is just like pocketing all the money and uh at that stage i had A very misguided view of grace and to say well you know he's not honoring his part but i need to honor my part and everyone else is around me it's just like jerry like this is bad for your license and you're not getting paid leave like if he's not paying you leave And so after nine months of that um

[00:13:02] Jacob: Thankfully my friends got me out of that job and got me onto a company that was More reliable but they was still struggling and yeah after a month or two getting going Through training and stuff like that they said hey we like you but we can't pay you more than eight hours a week and i said uh-oh um do i choose between renting groceries this month what do i do right not very sustainable exactly and so they said well you can get more Hours uh covering for us out at our Austin location um you know if you're if you're willing And so i said okay i I'm going to austin i baggers can't be choosers so you know and my friends just are telling me you know you could end up in worse locations right and i said

[00:13:44] Jerry: Yeah and but i had no idea what my life is going to look like this point all i know is i need to pay my bills so i'm out there you know working it was a great job don't get me wrong like the team that i walked into was wonderful uh but you Know i had no there was no stability right i wasn't even officially in payroll i had no benefits i had nothing of the stability that i knew i needed that i didn't appreciate until after i left all that and so this is 2012 now and That summer i got an email from some friends of mine who run a pharmacy leadership nonprofit associated with my pharmacy fraternity And they said hey We know that you've been facilitating Workshops on the fraternity side but we need someone to help out on the Leadership side for our national meeting this year and a spot opened up because someone had to back out would you be willing to step in and i said absolutely and so With that um you know teaching leadership and then

[00:14:41] Jacob: Seeing it modeled for me with a partner Who really brought out the best in me You know kind of opened my mind a little bit and i gave her i gave permission uh myself

[00:14:51] Jerry: Permission to give that possibility because before you know it was like oh leadership is hard i could never be good at it i'll never be good at it and it's like well you know if that's what you say about yourself how's that working out for you if you say you can't be a good leader who am i to question that right but if i said now well what if i could be a good leader what would that look like what kind of work would that involve and so now i came back to work with you Know this renewed vigor and this excitement and so the company i was

[00:15:18] Jacob: Working for at the time said okay about a month later they said well you have the option of staying part-time in austin or you can go to houston for a

[00:15:26] Jerry: Full-time manager position uh since that opened up and right now ironically enough the first three months i was living in austin jacob like i was like oh you know i'm just this isn't home and right as i thought i was actually going to lay down roots in austin and that's something i got to know some great guys and you know getting to know the city a little better things like that um you know i knew that i couldn't stay comfortable and i knew i wanted to come back home to houston need to take on this leadership challenge i didn't want to avoid this anymore and so Next thing i know i'm packing up all my things and coming back to houston And things didn't get easier jacob you know I struggle i still struggled with conflict they still struggled to uh you Know confront underperforming technicians i still um you know didn't know how to Uh see firing as a loving thing just

[00:16:19] Jerry: Recognizing hey you know what you're doing here isn't working here we're not necessarily accusing you of like being this terrible person you just need to find a company that's willing to put you know maybe tailor themselves around your

[00:16:30] Jacob: Preferences and your styles like that's and that's like the high end that's very much benefit of the doubt kind of situation but you have to at the end of the day like the relationship is going to work out but i actually got written up because i wasn't writing my technicians up now i'm just like oh my Gosh like when will this get easier when will this get better and so the company actually had their funding pulled a month a year later Uh just because the business model was uh not sustainable basically um Just a quick aside for people and they're like why did this happen so the company was involved in pain management medications in a legitimate way like they had a department of public Safety officer you know a former one Helping us keep in line to stay out of trouble but the problem is if the dea Still doesn't like you and they you know get in the way and interfere with your ability to keep medications in stock uh you can't sell What you don't have and you know if you

[00:17:23] Jerry: Can't make money the owners will move on So interestingly enough the only reason i even get an interview at my next job was That i had leadership experience on my resume now because of my time you know being a manager for this company and i said wow you know that was a good decision i'm glad that i can you know Get the attention of more companies now that i have leadership experience so the First thing i usually tell people is that leadership saved my career uh it is My one of my biggest struggles and biggest fascinations now and which is why i got into that space but to finish Up that story right what i tell people Is that farmers the pharmacy jobs that they have are like icebergs and that it's like they melt after like one or two years you know it's just like that's it they're just gone and so on one hand i have more icebergs To pick from but there's still icebergs

[00:18:10] Jerry: And so the next couple years are more of the same like i'd find a company you know barely in time to keep gainful Employment and then after a year or two They would go away and so about four years ago when my previous company went Under um i just had to ask myself well You know i'm tired of chasing scripts from doctors i'm tired of fighting insurance companies that determine how much i make on these medications even though i'm putting in the same amount of work but i love teaching leadership workshops i love developing people What if i tried to make a career out of Developing people so i started talking to coaches and other people in this space to see you know exactly how do

[00:18:48] Jacob: You do this and i knew i'd gotten pretty good at facilitating uh and running workshops and things like that but i still had no idea how to open a business run a business build a business and so i stayed away from actually throwing my hat in the ring for quite some time and it wasn't until coveted hit where i said well i can't afford to put this off any Longer like i still have this day job as a pharmacist which i'm grateful for don't get me wrong but uh i know my long-term Trajectory is to get this side business Off the ground and really have more of An impact for people that i know need This kind of help yeah Yeah right wow man what a Journey i feel like so much uh forced Forced learning experiences you know i mean so would You say that you would you say that you're someone who wouldn't consider yourself a born leader But more of like a learned leader or

[00:19:43] Jerry: Do you have any distinction between the two oh that's a that's a great question and it is an ongoing debate um i actually heard uh i was reminded of a phrase recently that maxwell uses in one of his books and he talks about what is He addressing the question what how do you how do you resolve whether or not leaders are born or made and uh his simple answer is of course Leaders are born how else are they made right it's just like well but in all Seriousness um i think part of it just comes back down To what do you believe about leadership right um if you believe that leadership is Innate to some people and exclusive to them and you know cut off from others Like what chance do you have right but if you're willing to believe the idea that um leadership is a skill that i can Learn if i and improve that if i put Enough work in like would i even allow for that possibility and you know if leaders are born and not

[00:20:41] Jerry: Made you know why don't we even bother right but Um you know it's i think about maxwell's Uh elaboration on that topic and he goes you know hey look there's three types of people when it comes to leadership the first are hey people have innate talent and you know they act on it great Most people fall in the middle group number two group which is hey they may not have all the instincts or innate Talent that the first group has but they still have enough to work with that they can improve upon right and then he says Then the third just don't care and he says take heart that you're not one of them because they wouldn't have picked up this book so you know nice uh Sales pitch there it's just like hey don't worry feel good about yourself that you even care to buy my book so good job um but yeah with all that said yeah i mean It took time uh for sure and it's still

[00:21:32] Jacob: A process i'm far from done in terms of my abilities as a leader i see it every day at my day job just when i thought i had everything in place so that my you Know team would really do the work and Be more autonomous on their part and they keep falling back into bad habits and you know um it's like we talked about this like i thought i was better at this but for some reason i have to do a lot more maintenance on my team than i ever expected but i say this not to sound Entitled uh it's just an opportunity to Learn and say okay well i guess i'm just not done uh i need to keep finding ways To motivate them well so here we go Right yeah i mean and that's what it takes for as a leader you got to kind of like take on the workload on your shoulders okay we're underperforming in this area we're not doing well in this area or where this could be improved how

[00:22:18] Jacob: Can i make that better like what am i doing that could be changed like how could i do what i'm doing differently to help my team you know i think that's what it takes to be a leader i also think that being a leader isn't really a I mean it's such a broad word in many ways but it really isn't something that you arrive at it's a constant it's a It's a way of making decisions Of constantly like egg every day so how would a leader Make this decision you know when something comes up maybe you have a an automatic reaction uh here's how i Want to react here's what would be comfortable here's what's going to keep me in this spot or you can think like a leader okay what does the team need How are we going to grow how does this lead us to our next step you know how How can we how can i lean down and offer a hand to the rest of my team to bring them up so for me um

[00:23:12] Jerry: Leadership has always been very fascinating to me so i always liked it i was a um in 10th grade i was a Sophomore class president in high school Yeah oh yeah thank you um But it was i remember i actually had this moment Where the like the vice principal Stopped me and we were going into one of the school dances and as we were walking and i was watching walking in with a couple of the other guys and to be honest i feel like we were probably we're probably like out in the car drinking or smoking or something like we were something fun yeah so i in you know it's Funny i think that the vice principal that i'm referencing um he basically walked in and he kind of pulled me to the side and i feel like he probably knew like he probably smelled my breath he you know i mean he probably

[00:23:57] Jerry: Understood it but he kind of gave me this couple minute long it caught me off guard but it always stuck with me and he pretty much like was looking in the eye and just hey i don't know if you noticed but you're a leader people look up to you people Listen to what you what you have to say And it was so heavy like i mean i Probably at the moment i was probably like okay man sure for sure But then you know it did stick with me in a way that as i got older um and as i I do find myself in leadership roles or Supervising or managing any of these Roles i am i keep it in the back of my mind this okay if people are listening to me You know if people are going to take time out of their day to stop what they're doing or if i'm rambling on about something i look around and everybody's staring at me and they're actually intently listening to what i'm saying maybe i should provide them with

[00:24:46] Jerry: Good content you know maybe i should maybe i should find ways to be helpful maybe i could improve my what i know so the things that i'm speaking or the situations that i am Actually leading um can you know be helpful and Beneficial to the people involved so It has been this interesting um That one moment really stood out for me um and so i try to I don't know if leaders are born i don't know if that really it just doesn't really seem to answer the question you know it seems i think we all kind of have some form of leadership within us and i Think if you can put yourself into the right environment put yourself into the right niche train yourself in the right ways

[00:25:29] Jerry: Put yourself around the correct people who need to hear your message or hear your way of leadership in your way of um teaching them and leading the charge so to say um yeah i think we all i think we all kind of have a leader within us what do you think about that jerry do you think everybody kind of has a point in them that's leader oh absolutely um i Because honestly if leaders are born and not made why i mean why do we sell so many leader development programs like if you're basically it's just like this is just an exercise in futility you know yeah thanks for your money you know good luck um i honestly there's this funny paradox of You know you hear so many people say you know my mentor saw something in me i couldn't see myself right and so it's like well how you know how Do you want to respond to that you know do you just say nah i you know He's a pretty smart guy but i think

[00:26:22] Jerry: I know myself better and even in coaching when we say hey look you're the expert on your life right uh at the same Time i believe a good mentor good influence is always going to see your potential more than actually just what's already there right they see what could be and not just what it is they acknowledge both but uh i mean i've It would take a lot and don't get me wrong there are people i've mistakenly written off you know over the years but Then you know you find out later oh my Gosh like i had no idea like what they accomplished and you know what they're doing with their lives now right um On one hand everyone loves an underdog story on the other hand you know Everyone i do believe i do like i believe that

[00:27:03] Jerry: Everyone has that potential if they're willing to act on it's just that's really the biggest tiebreaker it's not a question of whether or not you have it's just a question of whether or not you want to build on it and act on it in a way that's actually going to have an impact the way that will actually you know kind of elevate the playing field right yeah lift everybody up get everybody else on board and improved and Everyone's you know working hard and motivated and appreciative and respectful i would love to see that right well okay so how do we Lean into it if we're someone who's listening and they're like maybe they have some sort of leadership qualities maybe they've been a leader in the past

[00:27:35] Jerry: Maybe they're at a point where they're looking around and they've kind of taken you know maybe a more beta role maybe they want to step up maybe they want to start feeding that good wolf i like to say you know that future that long-term version of ourselves rather than that short-term comfort version of ourselves so if we do Have some spark of leadership someone maybe is resonating with this how do we feed that beast how do we feed the correct piece and be a leader yeah Good question um i think the first Thing i would think to ask them is to say hey you know who's In your circle that you respect right like who's someone in your current circle right now that you would Say you know what they have qualities that i want to have and i want to learn How to have them what would it take for you to just Hit them up for coffee to say hey can i just borrow you for 30 minutes and interview you because i noticed that hey

[00:28:32] Jacob: You know you're really patient under pressure you're really forgiving You have a level of compassion that i wish i had you know can i just pick your brain for 30 minutes and see what would it take for you know to learn how you got to that point um because you know on one hand i would love to you know get the attention of simon sinek or all these other thought leaders out there right but they're pretty busy And i'm not you know i'm exactly on their radar but you don't have to go to The top right you just need someone That's in your in your neighborhood right that you like and so just Start with your network right start where you are and just say hey who's someone i want to learn from and just if You have their contact information you know it's warm traffic right it's they're not you're not cold calling it's just not hard to just pick up that phone or

[00:29:21] Jacob: Send that email and fire off that text and just say hey let me pick your brain and learn from you for 30 minutes i think that would be the next action i would recommend for anyone trying to start yeah no i think that's a perfect idea too jay because we i think when we look Closely if we take a step back and Also look closely at the same time you know we can kind of look around and i bet you most of us are if we looked a little bit we would find people in our lives who we do have um Traits they have traits we admire you know i feel as i've gotten older um and i'm Able to kind of retrospectively look back at you know my teenage years and in How i learned because i was very observant i would i would watch the people around me because you know i was Very much um you know building my own my Own puzzle piece my own puzzle with all the pieces sort of so to say uh i was

[00:30:11] Jacob: Learning along the way i was very diy i was very observant okay how does this person do that okay i'm gonna try it that way no it doesn't work for me whatever um and as i get older i can Kind of really i admire so many so many people in my Life because i'll see the way they do this one thing or the way they Interact with their family in this way the way they speak to their wife in this way the way that they take care of their business and this way and i'm it's Really cool because you can kind of piece together ooh i like that this person that i admire does that i'm gonna i'm gonna try that oh and the way that he handles this i'm gonna try that too you know so i think that's a great example of finding the people in your circle finding the people who are available to you and i bet you that you know more

[00:30:53] Jerry: Often than not if you kind of just straight up with someone you tell them hey look here's an area of my life that i want to try to you know buckle down on Here's an area of my life where i'm just not doing super well um Like let's go to coffee i'll pay for coffee please like let's just conversate you know i bet you the The person on the other end would be pretty reciprocating of being told That you know that's that'll probably feel good to know that someone one of your friends or someone in your life kind of looks up to you in a certain way and you have something that they can offer this is real that's real community right there you know that's absolutely yeah um so uh you had a quote on your website be Free from the fear of conflict Like it was just this simple thing i was just kind of browsing through you know looking on the website and i read that more than once and i think that's actually really cool because Conflict it's something that so

[00:31:47] Jerry: Many of us will repeat the same thing every day we'll be almost addicted to conflict in a way you know and it will be unconscious of it as well we just think it's part of our everyday life well i'm talking to susan and every friday susan ticks me off at work here we go you know i get every morning at 8 00 a. m i Talk to jeff and here we go that's Just the conflict that i deal with 30 minutes just this thing that sometimes we can get used to so um being Free from the fear of conflict i think Not only noticing that conflict is happening but noticing that you can be free of it and um noticing that it's you Don't have to be you don't have to be afraid of it's something that you can kind of learn to develop within yourself and learn to um I guess i guess navigate differently so Let's expand on this jerry what's this uh be free from the fear of conflict what does that mean to you yeah jacob i'm so

[00:32:41] Jerry: Happy you did homework you know Hold me too hold me to my words yeah i know absolutely and yeah and uh Trying to get my message across a little more clearly and straightforward uh What's interesting right is that in my Attempts to resolve conflict what happens when it's resolved you go You experience closure and you feel good that you can have Some level of relief right and guess what's waiting for you another conflict And now the stakes are higher right so

[00:33:12] Jerry: The wording is very deliberate in that You will never be free of conflict And you may never be free um you know from that fear but you can still deal with it right you can say hey like you don't have to be afraid of it anymore um you can Either run from it which never solves The problem right and you'll probably lose a lot of relationships and friendships along the way if you never Uh if you keep avoiding it right and i've lost friendships that way because i just said you know what i can't even begin to start i'm just gonna have to drop this one and that's tough because You know there are some friendships toxic relationships yeah you just have to drop and that's just a case-by-case basis but uh to be able to recognize hey

[00:33:52] Jerry: Is this healthy conflict or unhealthy conflict uh as you start to notice distinctions the more you lean into this and so when you realize for instance you know if we have a good working relationship and there's something i did that i messed up on or was not up to your expectation the worst thing for you to Do is not to tell me right to say i'll just get over it's like no like i would if the if the tough feedback is coming from someone that i respect and trust Addressing that uh you know broken expectation while it's still small is really the healthiest way to maintain the relationship right like no One ever says oh that fire is not big Enough i don't have to put it out yet but that's exactly what we're dealing with right now oh no you know that's i Can deal with that later it's like now you know now everything's burned down and you're just like oh i guess i should have just you know put that baking soda on a little sooner right deal with the ashes exactly

[00:34:47] Jerry: Um but yeah that's the idea is just to say hey you know what uh there was a point where i just said you know conflict oh like it's just so exhausting and i know i just don't want to deal with this anymore but now uh in asking myself well what are the Blessings that conflict brings to the table right to recognize that hey you Know what i'm seeing this person for who they really are and that wow okay now That the truth is all out now we can actually build on this relationship and i had to learn that the hard way several times just to say hey you know what um Passive aggressive comments are funny in movies but they're terrible in real life relationships so yeah you know we that's why we have the movies right to say stuff that we could never get away with in real life and people think well you know what i'd love to say that it's like try that let me know how that goes right So to ask people hey what would it take

[00:35:36] Jerry: For you to be able to say hey you know what we're going to respectfully disagree on these things but i still care about you i still respect you We may not line up on everything but as long as we know that hey there's a common goal we agree on that we need to get done then let's figure out the best way to do it and i mean i'll give an example so i help out with a A local salsa dancing club at the at the University uh i graduated from so i rise I you know they started salsa club and i and i helped out with and that's you know one of the one of my favorite joys in my weeks just to teach students how to enjoy dance as much as i do and so the funny thing is um At one point it was just open source sharing there were no dues you know there was no overhead so we didn't have to charge a lot of money and so just four people that were generous including

[00:36:21] Jerry: Myself were happy to just you know run Lessons and just have people have a good time and then after a while we just kind of got sick of the fact that even though we didn't need a lot of money we liked having a little money in the bank in case we wanted to do something or make a nice purchase or get some nicer equipment things like that and i went Back and forth with these students because right i'm out of school i'm like money is a statement of value and they Say no money is a barrier to entry and So we had this conflict over whether or not to charge dues and go back and forth Well you know we don't want to keep students away and people you know uh They resent you know they said they feel resentful and have to pay something just enjoy it and i say well you know people don't respect free stuff so how do we You know navigate all that and it wasn't

[00:37:04] Jerry: For a lack of empathy and so i just said hey at some point i just kind of held their feet to the fire and said hey look we need to address this even if the answer comes out that the best answer is no we will keep things free so be it i just want us to go through the process and thank goodness that they Came across a great compromise that for A solution i wouldn't come up with on my own and they said okay fine we're going to keep it free for rice students but Everyone else that's you know kind of gleaning you know blessing from what we're doing has to pay like you know like 15 a semester which is still Nothing for like paying working professionals right and the funny thing is when we implemented that plan no one

[00:37:41] Jerry: Fought back because you know the students that couldn't want to keep on to whatever dollars they have they said oh this is still free for us because we already paid all the use all our money for tuition it's great and then everyone else you know that was you know paying you know paying money we said no like 15 bucks for a semester that's it that's a no-brainer yeah absolutely and now we have money in the bank and everyone still comes to our lessons so you know yeah but yeah had we not addressed that conflict right uh you know had we not acknowledged hey we disagree on these things but what is the best way forward i mean i'm so grateful

[00:38:11] Jerry: That we came across that solution and you know we're stronger for it right yeah but we hadn't it wouldn't have been if we had been oh that's just a tough conversation i don't want to have that it's like no now we have money in the bank yeah i mean i mean so often we want to avoid the tough conversation i've done it tons of times in my own life of course you know we all have our own our own levels of it but it's interesting that i think it is very Powerful to make a decision rather than Rather than just the decision of indecision you know because that's also another point that i've heard i've heard other leaders um kind of state before is you know the decision to um enact or the decision to not make a Decision is still a decision right you Know and sometimes um you don't know

[00:38:54] Jerry: The resolutions that are on the other side of just having that conversation you know you guys came up with something new that wasn't even in the original kind of disagreement what did the um Because when it comes down to the nitty gritty of actually like face to face With people you're working with people you're around looking them in the eye not having any passive aggressiveness not you know really leaving it all on the table not having our emotions get the best of us all sorts of sorts of these things what does it really look like or what did it look like in that situation of actually being able for you to say Look guys this is clearly plaguing us this is a decision that we need to come to so the actual boots on the ground Conversation how did that go Yeah um i think one of the one of the best uh solutions i kind of Stumbled into in when we finally all got On a zoom call to discuss everything was Number one for me to acknowledge

[00:39:54] Jerry: Uh the strong points of their argument

[00:39:57] Jacob: Right because that shows a level of respect And attention and empathy saying hey I am paying attention to what you're actually saying um and to be able to say hey look guys like here is where we were these were the strong points this is the case uh to keep that going to say hey You know what we're just about sharing and it doesn't cost us a lot to share so let's just keep sharing and that's basically you know their mentalities and they said hey we have a you know good nucleus of people for right now this Solution will work and then you know from my standpoint to be able to say hey look guys My stance in light of this is to say Well you know i'm happy to be generous And i also want some indication that my Time experience and effort are worth Something and um you know and making the case that hey People take this more seriously and will Have less attrition if people have skin in the game so given all these strengths

[00:40:56] Jacob: That sometimes may feel like they're at odds how do we address this and to dovetail On that quickly right there's an interesting thing that happens when you acknowledge the other side's strengths right number one it diffuses the argument any kind of like antagonism because people realize Oh we don't have to dig our heels in right he already understands and appreciates what we bring to the table And oh yeah that means we're on the same side we're all working toward a common goal of trying to keep this club viable so how do we just do that um i was Re-listening to a book called decisive by chip and dan heath and they talk about the situation and i'm glad i managed to review it right before this podcast they talk about this company that had a mind that was Not doing well financially and you know The executives want to close it because It is financially uh in the red but then

[00:41:49] Jerry: All the employees of the mine are saying no you need to keep it open you know we have bills today we have you know mouths to feed and so you know this new executive comes In and challenges them and says well hey guys let's look at all the options on the table and i want you to ask yourself what would it take for each option to be the best option and all of a sudden it The conflict shifted from antagonizing To collaborative and productive conflict because now people are advocating you know now the now the miners have to ask themselves well what would it be you know if we had to close the mic what would what would have to be true for closing mine to be the best decision for this company right or same thing with keeping it open to say hey you know if we were to keep the mine open what would what kind of numbers would they need to hit in order to for us to reconsider closing the mind

[00:42:33] Jacob: Right and so the interesting thing and Enough was interestingly enough after all this deliberation they realized no we're going to have to close its mind so even the miners understood they say hey it sucks but we Understand that we have to close this mind and we're going to have to deal with the next actions for everybody that will be affected by it right all of a sudden you're sitting there thinking oh my gosh like i don't even know how it Started so how did not study this example man i'm so glad that i don't have to make all the mistakes to learn from in order to be effective right i can study this one and share with other people so anyway yeah no that one is perfect to get everybody else's mind on board you know and uh

[00:43:11] Jacob: And again have that difficult conversation i'm sure this was probably a long elaborated conversation i don't know how they uh painted it in the book but yeah um yeah because the you know passive aggressiveness as well as people-pleasing going back to that word i mean you mentioned it before i think that is that is a huge one i

[00:43:31] Jerry: I deal with i deal with people pleasing fairly often um just my Own versions of it because i'm i've always been this chameleon personality Um i have my i have my natural state and i feel like you know if like me out in The woods by myself um you know that That's a different person than you're going to get when i'm social for a couple days and around people i just really like reflecting people's um personalities back to them and reciprocating and i don't know just seems to be my natural state of being but it makes me being a chameleon and Mirroring other people often does put me in a place of people pleasing where i'm just kind of looking where what does this other person want and i've kind of learned how i've gotten That way and how my development As a as a young person has um how it was Helpful to me as a younger person and how it's unhelpful and helpful to me as I get older so it's always a A stepping stone i'm trying to navigate

[00:44:28] Jerry: Um but the when it comes to people pleasing What do you find the people that you're coaching um even in your own life How do we not only learn about it but how do we kind of improve on this you know stand Up for ourselves a little bit more um really listen to our inner guidance and speak up yeah great i love these Questions because it is i think this is

[00:44:52] Jerry: Even if you feel good actually feel like you're good at conflict right like how can you not you know glean something about reviewing fundamentals or trying to still get better at it right because as you said leadership is a lifelong skill and conflict resolution is no different um i think the first is just to yeah Generate that level of awareness right what am i feeling right now like if something if promise it feels like it's broken you know what how do i feel it why and to be able to be willing to say Um you know if i keep this inside me it Doesn't do any good i think that was Really one of my biggest turning points in conflict resolution was recognizing if i am frustrated the worst thing i can do is just suppress it and try to dissipate it on my own um and then the Second mistake is to talk to everyone else around the conflict and

[00:45:36] Jerry: You know so it's one thing to like get it out in the open but if it's not with the person that you need to resolve the conflict with that's also unproductive right um and so to be able to say hey You know what um i can't afford to Tolerate this i think that's the first thing to realize about yourself to say hey you know what um there is something broken and i can't afford to let it sit Because if i do i'm just to get more and more resentful and i've seen that time and time again people just need to ask themselves what's the cost of inaction as i said earlier and so the second is okay if this is out and about Now do i recognize that the person i need to Dress with is a collaborator you know is A teammate is a friend and

[00:46:17] Jerry: You know the best thing for our relationship is for me to be honest i do need to learn how to be tactful right unless it's a level of bluntness that both people can appreciate and are willing to like you know uh understand Hey you know what i might this might come across a little rough but i'd rather say it than not right um so the Second is okay i can't tolerate inaction Um if i care enough about this person And care enough about the relationship i need to go ahead and directly address it with the problem with them and then from there just to say hey you know what i'm not sure why i'm having these feelings but these are my feelings and i need to share them with you because um Help me process the story behind them help me understand this right because That's one of the quote trump cards that people use in health resolution say hey they can't refute how you feel like they might Disagree with it but they can't refute that and you have to use that very

[00:47:09] Jacob: Carefully because on one hand just trying to be honest but you can't afford to be manipulative right that's the other that's the other big mistake i think that people when it comes to this but i think the initial response to your Question is to say yeah um generate that Awareness uh recognize that um you have To do something about it and then also to remember hey this is not about my ego this is about trying to agree on and honor a higher standard between me and the person that i need to trust us with and i think that's a good start yeah i definitely like that when

[00:47:41] Jerry: It comes to i feel like our emotions often get in the way right is that something that you that you find often you have to bring shine a little light on bring awareness around um of maybe people not even recognizing when their emotions are getting the best of them when emotions because if i start getting angry and i'm trying to solve a conflict and i start getting overly emotional or erratic or whatever sometimes the other Person is going to mirror it you know and we're going to we're going to kind of activate each other in an unnecessary Way do you have any um in any resolutions for people who might be needing to either Notice that they're having an emotional response or even just if they do already know that they have it how do they kind of keep it under control under underlocking yeah it's Uh it's definitely not a one-size-fits-all Kind of answer but i think for the truest principles for anybody

[00:48:35] Jacob: You know for some people they say hey let me just journal like right now just let me mental rammed up on a piece of paper this is what happened this is what i'm feeling because the sooner you give Yourself the sooner you get it out of your head and into a third person state right you Can kind of be more objective with evaluating your situation uh so that's One approach that might work for some people other people might need 24 hours right just to say hey you know what let me let me um sit and process this Um and calm down and kind of get it out Of my let that right out of my system

[00:49:08] Jerry: Before i can get back to a rational way of thinking because i think while we can't you know do away with them completely i think it's i think it's foolish just to completely disregard them or you know to like ignore them because we're human like we have feelings we have emotions but to channel them in a way that's still ultimately constructive because yeah like on one hand hey your emotions and feelings might be telling you something about the situation maybe it's just that like for me right if someone breaks the promise i feel disrespected that's the first thing uh That i feel i feel disrespected because it says hey you made this promise even if you didn't keep it as originally uh

[00:49:43] Jerry: Intended like my expectations that you still find a way to honor it that you know communicate with me proactively why you couldn't honor it and that we make you know alternate arrangements and it's not without grace like you obviously you know want to be more accommodating because yeah like life happens family emergencies come up so it's not fair for me to completely judge them based on my understanding of the situation but i do believe hey you know What your emotions are telling you something so yeah don't disregard them but study them but also don't let them affect how you respond to other situations and so if you need to take a day before addressing a situation you don't want to wait too long obviously because resentment just festers but hey Let them know hey i you know this Happened i'm going give me a day And then i'll reach back out again to you and then we'll be able to assess And uh you know collaborate so Something like that right yeah i

[00:50:34] Jerry: Mean i think a lot of people be surprised how different our reactions to something are going to be if we just give it 24 hours so we just give it a little bit of time to cool off let whatever biochemical responses That were happening in that moment kind of settle all right let's get clear minded what do i really think about that what do i really desire out of that situation what do we what's the best for our overall you know um

[00:50:56] Jacob: Community in this situation our whole group our whole team uh jerry do you do

[00:51:01] Jerry: You watch uh just think about someone who's a conflict resolution coach do you

[00:51:07] Jerry: How do you feel when you watch things like the presidential debate um like Like the more recent one like where they're not even communicating they're just kind of attacking each other and it's just so silly i imagine with all of your experience in this in this realm you probably just oh man You guys are doing everything wrong how do you feel when you watch stuff like that uh a couple thoughts number one it makes me sad right that you like these People have come along so far in life and then you decide to default to really bad and childish and immature habits um Yeah i won't i don't want to Again in my desire to avoid unnecessary Conflict i don't want to get overly political but at the same time i can i Can honestly say hey look you know i've seen enough evidence to know You know the fact that there are people out there that deliberately uh pray on discord and like to like to Antagonize in an attempt to make an us

[00:52:03] Jacob: Versus them mentality you know and it's not just for like the you know recent presidential elections this is i see it true i've seen that you're on my work team i had to fire a technician a couple years ago because she actively sewed discord because she Was more concerned about looking like the best person for the job because she wanted to actively sabotage everybody else and it was maddening that she felt like that she Had to do this and even worse she was taking on work that she couldn't handle herself and anytime she messed up she would keep it to herself because she didn't want to deal with the fallout that was that she feared if she found if We found out the bosses found out that she was not doing her job and you know It was just a just a really destructive Cycle and so yes anytime people like let Their ego get in the way of these things Um to a point where it's more about like how you hurt me as opposed to hey let's

[00:52:55] Jacob: Let's agree on and accept this standard to make sure hey let's keep this company open right like we can't Afford to we have enough missiles firing out our ship outside of us we can't afford to be syncing our own boat right but that's exactly what people do it's versus the Problem yeah exactly it's like yeah you Know we can handle any missile that comes at us but you know it's not if we don't have a boat to float then no like the missiles the Missile will only just you know add to the problems already here so yeah let's straighten things out internally for sure yeah it kind of Reminds me of have you ever watched game of thrones uh just clips just clips okay yeah basically um i mean You definitely can't summarize game of thrones it's a very elaborate show But the point that i was um

[00:53:42] Jacob: Glancing towards in this is uh one of the main characters jon snow there's something going on there's something bigger than the who's gonna get to sit in the iron throne like who gets the chair who's the king because it's like the king thing doesn't matter when you know Global warming is coming or the in game of thrones the king doesn't matter when there's like these white walkers zombie type things that are gonna kind of come and just destroy all of us it doesn't matter who's sitting on the throne when there's nobody left to sit on the throne you know exactly yeah so we get kind of lost in the in In the weeds there and uh for getting forgetting what's important for sure

[00:54:18] Jerry: Absolutely yeah you're just like so what if you won like they're about you know if even if she even thought this technician managed to get everyone else fired so she could be you know still be around it's like the company had to shut down because of all the stuff that you messed up it's like okay well you have to move on anyway yeah you know good luck well so in that specific situation um I'm not sure like how much you can indulge in that what was going on in her I mean this is a strange way to wear it but what was going on in her head you know like what do you see as someone who is a conflict resolution Coach you know with your experience um With your ability to you know probably read people pretty well um i'm sure that ability is improving more and more too but what would you say was going on With her like what was she trying to get Or not get or yeah uh no it's um there

[00:55:06] Jacob: Are no names so i can i can hear all the dirty launches there's no names um And plus you know in the event that she is listening hey you know i'll say hey you know i hope you're doing well and you know i hope you were able to learn from this and grow as a person you know so hey no ill will i hope nothing Comes across as sub tweeting or like dancing in anyone's grave because i am sad that you know we had to have this Come to this moment of closure even if it was an outcome that she may have disagreed with but yeah it comes back Down to um thinking that the best way to get ahead is to sabotage others is to just Make others look bad or you know if you Like to get paid but don't really want to do the work that's involved there's some kind of broken thinking involved right that just says hey you know i'm doing a good job and no

[00:55:52] Jacob: One needs to let me know how i'm messing up because i don't want to feel like incompetent because i have mistakes to Learn from or things to improve upon unless i need to do some like uh Customer service level or you know damage control or you know spin doctor Thing just to kind of smooth over my mistakes um yeah so when people Don't uh remove their ego from the situation like i tell people i say look um I'm not worried about getting credit if i get the work done and i do a good job and i make things easier for other people to do their work more effectively credit will find me and Of course i'm just going to deflect it back to my team and say hey you know what this is nice thank you for this i couldn't have done it without their help right but for people who feel like they have to spotlight all the work that they're doing and uh you know are afraid for job security if they don't you know have the do the

[00:56:45] Jacob: Heaviest lifting things like that or you Know hide things the fact that anyone needs to hide anything is really the biggest red flag right when they feel like oh you know i'm just going to keep this to myself and hopefully people Won't find out how bad a problem it is until like the bomb like eventually Blows up that when i'm not there or i'm after i'm fired because you know after we dismissed her you know we found out everything oh we had to do a whole ton of cleanup after the first in the next two months because of everything that she was hiding that she was you know making you know bad promises for because she couldn't handle it on her own and yeah so this unwillingness to delegate Unwillingness to communicate um in her Mind where she feels like yeah i have to make myself look good and i have to justify myself this way as opposed to

[00:57:29] Jacob: Taking the feedback and being humble and coachable and when the company says hey look this is this is the system you're gonna have to buy into if you're gonna be here and if you trust us enough uh that you know We're not we don't wanna we're not gonna dismiss your opinions um but at the same Time we need you to consider our feedback uh and how you want to act on This if you expect the team to really flourish in a way so you're not burnt out you don't feel like you have to hide anything and you're going to be willing To receive feedback that you may not like as long as you understand that this is in your best interest right we want to tell you how to stay employed with this company and you know And i had to do it again with my text recently even after we thought we cleaned house there's some people that are still reverting to bad habits and

[00:58:11] Jerry: Again it's like hey the most loving thing i can do for you is tell you exactly what you need to do to improve like i'd rather ask questions and let you discover for yourself but in this moment if it's too urgent okay we're gonna give you some directives and the clarity that you say you need so that This doesn't happen again Yeah and i think also being able to To ask for help you know that's such a hard thing too yeah this i mean if you Recognize that you're in an environment where um you know your leadership team or just your team around you is willing to really like listen and really um you Know not brush you off or any of those sorts of things if there's an environment where you feel comfortable and safe saying you guys i just don't know i need some Help for this you know that's a good thing so recognizing if you do have that environment around or some um

[00:59:02] Jacob: Doorway to those sort of conversations like definitely take it on because there's no shame in saying hey look i don't want to make this a bigger deal than it is um You know i think there is part of it that it does kind of hurt to admit that we're not as competent as maybe we put on to be you know i think we all have our Own our own um you know our own fear of inadequacy For those sorts of things but it is A powerful i would say that it takes um courage is a good word for that if

[00:59:33] Jerry: You're the person who needs help having the courage to ask for help having the courage to say you guys have kind of dug myself into a hole i'm so sorry that we're all gonna have to work a little bit harder for the next couple days but it's gonna save us you know from having months long of work i think that's really worth it and that is something worth leaning into it's good to have that courage to say i need some help yeah absolutely yeah the last thing we would want is for people to think no i I don't have any blind spots i'm perfectly competent to handle everything you throw at me and it's like that's that can work up to an extent but If you're honestly taking more than you can honestly handle it's silly and Foolish to say no boss yeah i'll figure Out a way to get it right instead of being able to uh kindly negotiate well

[01:00:17] Jerry: Boss you know this is what you have me working on here and then you have you know project b and c and d now you want Me to take on project e so Based on a b c and d like what do you want me to kind of shelve or put off for right now So i can focus on e if this is really The most urgent thing right instead of just being like no boss you know conflict of version right oh yeah boss just keep giving whatever you want me i'll get it done i can handle it yeah and then you're up getting no sleep and you're yeah you're in you're stressed out and it's just adding up and yeah and then you then you kind of Half ass a few things rather than whole Asking one thing you know as they say Um hey i did want to go it sounds like you um are well versed in the uh literature

[01:01:02] Jacob: World so do you have book recommendations i always love to get book recommendations from jacob you're speaking my language what do you got man what do you got and what have you been reading lately as well yeah um So some of my favorite books um There are five books by the Heath Brothers that i think every leader in established consider reading they are

[01:01:26] Jerry: Made to stick power of moments switch decisive and Upstream and all five of them have Compelling examples and will really inspire you to really uh just do some Amazing things with your life um michael Bungie stanier wrote two books for coaching one uh the first one is the coaching habit talking about the seven questions leaders can ask to uh you know Not uh get burnt out uh you know Compensating for every team mistake that New team makes uh the second uh by him Is called the advice trap and recognizing hey your advice actually

[01:02:01] Jacob: Isn't helping as much as you think it is you know just because you think you have the right answer doesn't mean they're going to use it or apply it the way you think it's best you know um Getting things done on the productivity side getting things done by David Allen he you can get certified in his productivity methods it's just this really crazy global movement um i also like

[01:02:21] Jerry: Um atomic habits James Clear he does a Good job just yeah just tailoring you know how do i what are the four aspects of making sure i get a happy stick i recently finished limitless by jim quick That's k-w-i-k uh really great story really simple uh Fundamentals on how to really unlock Your mind power and i'm i've finished a couple business Books uh Donald Miller's uh building a Story brand uh has done an excellent job In terms of making your marketing clear and straightforward in terms of you know helping drive more business to your Company and uh he has one i'm going through now called business made simple it's a 60-day exercise and just learning How to get your business off the ground and yeah so a range of things there's also some fiction in there uh celeste own wrote uh Two really good books uh everything i never told you and little fires everywhere that resonated with me because they center around like asian families and the shame culture that you know that we all get uh you know kind of

[01:03:20] Jerry: Run through as we grow up um yeah

[01:03:22] Jacob: There's just so many out there but yeah if you had to start somewhere uh those are some of my bread and butter books and then also some of the more recent ones that i'm cleaning useful information from nice yeah oh man there's so many good books out there i've been um My roommate suggested a while back a few months back he handed me one of his books and it was a this is like the way of the warrior or Or something like that but basically he was handing it to me with uh kind of Like a suggestion to get out of my head because i read all these you know uh Philosophy books or meditation books or Um uh you know the autobahn Autobiography of a yogi i'm reading all these like self-help motivational books and that's what i love doing um it helps Me helps me in any of this sort of World you know i feel like the gems

[01:04:10] Jacob: That i'm able to gain from those books and repeat in my own words is helpful to people um but uh so taking his advice i didn't Read the book that he handed me because i was uh he's like do something less Non-fiction do something that's just enjoyable where you're just kind of reading a book where there's not a goal where you're just enjoying it So i refuted the book that he handed me and then a couple months later i did listen to what he said though i did agree i was like okay i need to I need to just enjoy reading so um i got A i got a ready player two um Was it earnest klein i got that on audible and just finished that a couple days ago so that was a good one so another um Fiction book that's worth reading ready player two awesome yeah um So in the world of Let's see let's glance on my notes what do we cover we covered a lot of good stuff already terry Um

[01:05:10] Jacob: The internal conversation let's dip our toes into that the internal conversation between um Because that's kind of what we're all experiencing right you know we have these what does it look like when you're talking to this person how does it look like if you're watching the conversation on the outside what about our internal dialogue as we're having not only conflict but um you know if we're coming

[01:05:31] Jerry: Up in areas maybe it's not even in the workplace where we're people pleasing Where we can bring awareness to these things where we're noticing that they're happening what's this an internal dialogue look like and how can we kind of prod it and poke it towards the correct powerful Uh areas yeah i mean that's uh that's a Fun one for sure uh so the example i Usually like to share is that in growing up right the opinions of people you care about or respect or you know you hold in highest team like your parents right uh usually you transfer That to yourself um you know and so one example i shared In another podcast was talking about how Um you know my parents had an interesting long game and they told me later when i grew up they said hey you know we withheld a lot of praise because we were afraid that if we gave you too much like encouragement or you know good job son like you wouldn't work as hard

[01:06:24] Jerry: And one of the things i remember my dad telling me is uh during one saturday Morning math session right everyone else is watching cartoons but i have to do sat prep books right um there was a Concept i was struggling with at some point and so he said you know jerry give Let me give you a japanese lesson really quick ted And so he's basically taught me japanese to tell me that my head was made of concrete and even funnier is that i could totally hear my paternal grandpa his dad doing That to him right because my grandpa Grew up in taiwan during world war ii and so they had to learn german and japanese as part of axis domination right and so this is what gets passed down to me is that maybe if we tell him He's stupid he'll work hard enough so we don't have to tell him he's stupid anymore guess what i'm telling myself after i go

[01:07:20] Jerry: Through this right oh i'm stupid i'm just not worth it i don't know right and then that transfers to other areas of my life right you know a date goes bad or it doesn't quite go it's just like oh god so indebtable blah right and so now even on the Outside when i can do enough hard work To you know finish the pharmacy school degree get licensed get it present myself well to get a job but i'm just hating myself inside right and you know for the longest time i didn't want to tell people that i struggled with insecurity i didn't want to admit that This was a problem because it just felt like such a stigma and so it wasn't until even recently Um where i would i remember when i moved to houston and i mentioned that i started with insecurity to a friend that had recently gotten to know and she's like oh yeah i struggled with that too and i just said oh my gosh you know i can't believe that and that you know that was comforting

[01:08:11] Jerry: But you know it was a long way to go right it's one thing to acknowledge the problem in front of you in other to actually try to you know develop a plan Or to uh you know tell your approach to actually deal with these like uh you know limiting beliefs or as jim quick Says you know i automatic negative thoughts right uh so Uh the first kind of to go back to the

[01:08:31] Jerry: Practical plan right you know what are you doing to generate awareness is the first question i like to ask people uh because that's usually the first thing that people overlook they're so distraction prone oh hey i got another like on instagram i could do all this other stuff and they don't want to deal with like the bigger problems in front of them and i try not to make fun of you know technicians i work with in past but they're always on their phones and it's just kind of like okay on one hand i'm already annoyed that you're probably not working on what you need to be number two even worse you're not even being productive with that time like if you're on an ebook i gave you know great Maybe i might roll my eyes but at least you know even if you're not doing the immediate task at hand at least you know you're still developing yourself but

[01:09:10] Jacob: Yeah to generate that awareness to say you know journal or something right just Ask yourself why am i thinking what am i thinking you know how did this get here why am i telling myself this and then to Say you know is this helpful is this Accurate you know what why do i think it's accurate i've been caught so many times jacob i don't know about you uh you know a girl doesn't return my texts in like the next five minutes and i've already assumed that she's blown me off right it's just you know just the stories i guess i'm uninteresting okay i guess she's not that excited about me um and so yeah so to really first catalog Your thoughts and then but to also ask yourself okay You know if do i like what i'm seeing or Do i like what i'm observing okay what Do i want to do about this how do i change this how do i want to respond to this um you know do i need help right if It is a clinical issue then yeah by all

[01:10:03] Jerry: Means there's no shame in that uh one of the earliest podcasts i did was with the clinton clinical psychologist out on the west coast he was highlighting the mental health journeys of all these asian you know celebrities and it is honestly ridiculous to hear some of the things that they've been through and what they tell themselves you know you hear extreme bouts of depression with like mark with joe and all those other things like william hung has had two divorces and he's like wait i thought they achieved the success and then it turns out nope they have life stress just like everybody else um and so yeah all that to say right yeah first ask yourself do i like what's on my mind yes or no if i do how do i build On it you know what do i what where do i take that next step how do i take it to the next level or if i don't like it hey it's okay you know glad i found out and

[01:10:45] Jacob: What help do i need who can help me kind of maybe change my narrative a little bit so that i'm actually on a more productive path right yeah wow that's incredibly valuable right there jerry um i was thinking about the uh when you were mentioning The technicians being on their phones it just makes me think about so i'm a Millennial and so i definitely you know Earl early high school i was you know we Had myspace we had we had the internet you know but i was still at the beginning when we were using dial up and we kind of transitioned into where you can actually someone could be on the phone in your house while you're while you're also on the computer it was this cool thing yeah no i missed that yeah just fun stories yeah So uh i mean we have this big very

[01:11:30] Jacob: Very different world very changing world you know as i get older i realized so in high school and then the few years after high school i was very much addicted to my phone i was always on social media i didn't realize how often I was i was not being present how often I was i mean i would get to the point where as people are talking to me i'm like oh yeah i'm listening and then suddenly i'm start scrolling through instagram as i'm in a conversation and i didn't realize how disconnected that was making me feel um i didn't realize The amount of times where if i was in an uncomfortable situation i would just pull out my phone um you know like the The simple example of waiting for an elevator and there's people around you and you know maybe you don't want to have conversation that's okay but even just sitting there and existing just being like that was so difficult i

[01:12:13] Jacob: I pull out my phone and so you know and i think this adds to a lot of our a lot of our insecurities um And in it i don't know it just it's difficult To solve a lot of our conflicts in so many ways when we're so distracted by All the pretty colors on our on our phone so do you have do you have any Observations of kind of our modern age with these with these phones and don't get me wrong i love all the things we're able to do it's amazing it's literally a magic miracle in a box Like it's just this magic box in our pocket that does whatever we want it to do i'm so grateful for it but i do also Recognize and i'd like to point out the ways and bring to our awareness that um You know it how it doesn't help us to Consistently be on our phone and consistently be pulling it out and distracting ourselves and how much it makes us not able to sprint for long

[01:13:02] Jerry: Periods of time um when it comes to work so in the area of conflict resolution how does how do our phones negatively affect us yeah um so i'll quote another um Book that i like and i and i'll cite what the office specifically says about phones in that whole process or smartphones anyway so eric barker is barking up the wrong tree everything we know about success is mostly wrong easily one of the best and Like most encompassing books on defining your success that anyone should read just to ask yourself what am i really wanting out of life uh but there is a specific chapter he talks about a comic Book reference with like venom and how it overtakes the host and everything also the stuff for those of you who are Marvel fans great for those of you aren't just look up the quick wiki article and get up to speed on this um And they compare this to a smartphone where it says hey i love you know i love the power that this device has and i also hate the power

[01:14:02] Jacob: That it can have over me right and it's like you know stephen covey called it so many years ago right he said technology is a wonderful servant but a terrible master And that's true for money my money is a Wonderful servant but a terrible master Right um and all that to say right yeah Like i remember when i first finally decided to upgrade to a smartphone after you know i realized that some of the benefits i needed were not coming from My basic phone not what everyone kept making fun of and i didn't know that the default Settings were to notify me every time i got an email so like every five seconds Ding oh hey let me go check oh it's spam Okay out of the way ding oh let me go check oh no nor spam And i'd say this is worse than ever so Let me just turn off these distractions now let me turn off these notifications and i've been much more cognizant of

[01:14:52] Jerry: This it took me a while for me to finally kind of game my environment so that i would not Be on my smartphone late at night you Know doing duolingo lessons or anything else that was moderately productive but still you know i was losing sleep that i You know sleep is much more important than language learning at midnight right um and so to your point with conflict resolution If you are not entirely present it will Never go well right if people feel like you aren't actually listening to them good luck right it's i remember i you know to your Point i remember when i was sitting at Dinner with a friend that hadn't seen in a while and you know i had just gotten the phone that would allow me to text this was before i actually had a smartphone where i said like the slider and it was so cool but i remember

[01:15:38] Jacob: You know i was waiting on another friend to contact me afterwards in order to go to a convention i was in town with and so i'm with this other friend who wasn't part of that whole thing but you know we're talking and you know and then i Get a ding on my phone and then you know so i kind of i start to answer it and as I'm starting to answer it i see him slough off and also begin to answer because he needed to you know text back his wife and all of a sudden boom we were in the same we were sitting at the same table but we were more disconnected than ever right and you know same thing Happens here i put my phone in my backpack and i zip It up just to be sure i don't touch it at work any more than i have to um you Know or if i'm uh if i have to focus on

[01:16:16] Jerry: A project like you know recording a podcast or something like that i make sure my phone is like downstairs away where i can't even like get anywhere and i'll be happy to admit it's right here next to me but i'm doing my best just to make sure that even if something happens i'm not touching it because like how terrible would that be oh yeah jacob great question let me hang on a second no right yeah i'm sitting there that would be that would be completely disrespectful and then i wouldn't get any more gigs because they're just like yeah jerry you know he's an interesting guy but he's just he's composting he's addicted to he was on twitter a lot during our conversation everyone needs to listen to this podcast it's really i promise you i'm doing pr um but yeah basically with conflict if

[01:16:52] Jacob: You do not know how to read the room if you do not read the other person correctly right it is in your best interest and for not just yours but for The relationship and for the long-term game um to pay attention not only to What's being said but it's how it's being said and the body language and the tone and everything else so that you Know exactly how you need to respond in a way that shows that you care for them You respect them even if you disagree with them hey look there's something bigger that we need to shoot for so let's talk about how to do that yeah because i think you know you know we can hear about body language in itself and we kind of separate it from It's interesting to learn about body language in the psychology world because you're like oh okay so if they're standing like this and if they're doing this they're reciprocating and blah but really if you look at it all of that yes plus um you know a more Holistic uh observation of

[01:17:48] Jacob: Someone actually listening you know i think that we We when you're not fully tentative you don't realize how much you're missing you don't realize how much um I don't know i think that life can be a lot richer when you're when you're really listening you know it's is tempting as it is to pull out our little pocket mosquito you know and it's buzzing but yeah i think i stole that from russell brand actually i think i think he said it before but yeah it's uh it's this gift and a curse this thing um our Phones you know it's this wonderful thing but it uh i think it actually is pretty important i noticed how much more you know like i've seen with body language where we really are A lot of times we were communicating with more than just our words right it's a lot of times i'm not listening to exactly what you're saying i'm trying to understand what do you mean you know you're trying to poke This epiphany um of understanding

[01:18:47] Jacob: Within me and it's not always the exact words you know we get we get kind of hung up on the words but it really is when you when you're listening when you're tentative it communicates this much bigger um This much bigger thing to the person i think about um when i was younger i used to work um so It's like 16 to 19 i worked in the mall I had a few different jobs in the mall customer service and at that time it was certainly It was it was an environment of we all had Phones but it wasn't yet okay to where we've all kind of accepted we're all just going to have them and as long as you use it appropriately you just pull it put it back in your pocket and get back to the customer it was very much a hey man you need to leave your phone in the back room like there's no reason why you need to have your phone that's just kind of how it was back then and then now i'll go to stores and

[01:19:37] Jacob: Maybe it's because i learned this other way um i'll go to stores and i'll see a lot of young people they don't greet me when i walk into the clothing store and They're on their phone i'm kind of looking around and i'm you know there's maybe there's something up high and i'm kind of like giving the side eye like hey can you come glance over or whatever and they're texting behind the counter or whatever um and so And so and i'm not trying to say this as like some old man who's like hey back in my day we had to keep our phones in the back room you know but there really Is you know there's so much more just by me glancing over at a clothing store It really communicates so much to me to Have the other person meet my gays and say what's up do you need help i'm here for you i got you know in it Improves it improves their social skills

[01:20:22] Jerry: You know the skills that they're going to have in the years to come like a lot of my um i'm an introverted dude But a lot of my external um sharpened Abilities came from working at clothing Stores being in customer service kind of having to force myself to get out of my comfort zone you know and uh i think Maybe what i'm trying to say is just a reminder that the cell phone is Is a comfort zone in a lot of ways And i think that um you know rounding it Back to conflict resolution a lot of times we might be missing what each other are really saying we might be misunderstanding one another because we're not fully present you know if the

[01:20:56] Jacob: Phone's pulling you out of that maybe take a second look or turn off notifications you know that's a big one that you said um turning off notifications i did that i have a couple things i have notifications on but for the most part um i have notifications off on you know social media like the fun stuff that i don't really need to respond to right now you know Yeah um well jerry we are getting Up here for uh up here in time I do have one more question for you but before just so just so we don't forget i want to make sure we get um can we send the listeners to Like what's your website what are you working on what are your socials let's make sure we get them sent your way if they want to learn more about your world absolutely thank you yeah the Website is www. adaptingleaders. com

[01:21:42] Jerry: And uh You can find me on linkedin that's the one social channel i've been focusing on for right now so yeah feel free to you know find me on there uh if You go to my website uh there are plenty of buttons there you can hit to just get a free 30-minute call just you know no Strings attached just tell me what you're working on right tell me your story tell me you know how i can possibly be a Resource for you and whether you choose To hire me formally as a coach or not or You know help you know get me you know If you want to hire me for a group workshop say hey you know we've got some major conflict dynamics at our organization we think you know your perspective uh would be would be helpful To us win the day sure um but For those of you who say hey you know my budget's a little tight and i just need to bootstrap it for right now

[01:22:20] Jerry: My blog is free uh and if you want to ask me directly i'll you know you replay this podcast and say hey jerry mentioned five books that i should just start reading right now yes get those out of used books use book website start reading hey you Know come back and tell me hey those books are really helpful you know i landed a multi-million dollar deal so thank you for your help you know whatever it leads to uh you know i've Learned you know as much as i you know Need enough cash flow to keep my doors open uh the biggest priority is Still helping people so um whether you Say hey you know i didn't hire him but he was still very generous i hope people still say that hey you know what tell me but tell me why you didn't hire me tell me why you picked someone over me so i know how to improve my services so yeah Adaptingleaders. com and yeah uh just

[01:23:12] Jacob: Find me there yes i love that Everybody check that out Jerry's stealing one more thing from your website is the uh what could j food do For you i love that Or is it foo or is it for you how do i throw it you got it right okay It actually made me giggle uh when i when i glanced at that and saw that um yeah so that was like reading through everything yeah right um and i also will um Include uh i'm sure certain i'll remember right um I will also include that in the description so we'll have a clickable link down there as well with all jerry's info um okay so our last question i like To send it off um sometimes i mix it up but i've been kind of floating with this one for quite a while yeah um Jerry what does the world need more of Right now [Laughter] i can i can just feel the bait just be being like say love say well um I think the world needs more

[01:24:08] Jerry: Humility i was i'll be happy to pull back the curtain and say I think the world needs more curiosity it's like no I think the world needs more humility you can say empathy but of all the good answers i Think the best one is humility because Humility leads to curiosity when you Know hey i don't know everything i don't know what i don't know let me go but i want to find out and you know when Humility you know how i approach relationships or leadership i think uh humility is uh what the world needs more Of right so this way we're not grandstanding we're not you know we're Not puffing up our chest we're not trying to say how great we are we're saying how can i make the people around me great and i think again it just comes Back to good leadership How do i make the people around me great

[01:24:50] Jacob: Man i love that so much that's so perfect that's so great okay jerry Man i appreciate you Thank you so much for your time um this was a great conversation Thank you for all the book recommendations too i'm really pumped i feel like i'm going to go back through and write all these down and probably add them to my list of Eventual reads for sure and then also uh Thank you As a recovering people pleaser Uh i'm always working on these things so it was really cool to get to dive into your mind and uh and get some firsthand

[01:25:16] Jacob: Advice from you man really thank you so much again

[01:25:16] Jerry: Happy to help jacob please

[01:25:20] Outro: Please uh continue the dialogue even after the podcast is over yeah definitely man we'll have to stay in touch um so yeah Listeners take care of Yourself Love yourself drink some water Stretch you know the deal get present stretch your eyes out stretch your whole body breathe from your diaphragm get Present be here don't be distracted by your phone and Check out jerry's website jerry thanks again man uh yeah we'll be In touch we'll have to send some emails back and forth after this all right all right thanks man have a great day guys yeah you too take care Into the Junkyard Love Podcast At what age do we learn how to have Better conversations At what age do we learn have better conversations with ourselves Knowledge is power