Laughing Like a Hairy Oaf - Simple and playful ways to free your real voice - with Barbara McAfee

[00:00:15] Jacob: Have a question that I want to start with. I was listening to you um I believe it was one of your TED talks and uh where I would like to start if it's okay with you. You said most of us carry unconscious vocal habits that interfere with us doing our best work. What do you mean by that?

[00:00:30] Barbara: Well, I'll make a ridiculous example to start with. So, if the first words out of my mouth sounded like this, you know, you might have a different sense of who I might be. Or [snorts] if I was talking like this or like this. So, those are extreme examples. However, most of us are using our kind of unconscious default voice that we think is us, but it's not. It's cobbled together with duct tape and popsicle sticks and trauma and habit and something somebody said to us when we were five and just our story about who we are. And it's the story is always too small. So I like to bring awareness and choice into how people express themselves because you know the only thing we have is anything that happens in the world happens because we talk about it. A relationship, a business, a podcast, a book, uh family, anything. So that's what I mean by that.

[00:01:39] Jacob: Yeah. Great. Brilliant. Um okay. So how in which ways do I think you mentioned trauma as one of the things in which ways do our earlier experiences in life let's say especially maybe childhood teenage years how do that how does that shape our voice long term

[00:01:54] Barbara: Oh so many ways I go through a lot of tissue when I'm teaching in person

[00:01:58] Jacob: I imagine yeah [laughter]

[00:02:00] Barbara: Because you open up the voice and the truth comes out so a lot of us get the truth in our guts you know we have this wisdom this knowing we have whole another brain in our guts Now we know grandma knew that. The language tells us about gut instinct but um and so the truth rises up and then if you can't say what's so and most of us can't um it gets stuck in our throat and so there's a cut there and then there's also just a cut culturally between the body and the head. The head is favored. the body is like second fiddle. Although it's getting better. There's sematic therapies now and there's like more embodiment practices than there have been. But still most of us walk around with our body being kind of a little stock to carry our brain around. And um so a lot of my clients have been the keepers of secrets in their family. A lot of them had somebody say some horrible [laughter] thing to them. Sometimes it was like a music teacher when they were in third grade. I don't know where these people come from and they should not be near our children. Like, you know, you can't sing, move your lips. Um uh and then there's just cultural pileon. You know, what it means to be a man, what it means to be a woman, what it means to be a good person usually doesn't involve being primal, loud, hysterical, uh, playful. It gets very narrow, our voices. And so, we're all kind of wearing a vocal girdle,

[00:03:47] Jacob: Right? For lack of a better. And then so and then so you work with people like what are what are some of the ways that not only how you identify like where you can help people point out like hey you see how your voice is doing that or you identify I think you have your five different elements that you sort them into. So do you point those out to people and then what are your steps to kind of release those things to free up their voice?

[00:04:10] Barbara: Well we start big. We start beyond speaking and singing in sound because that sets us that's like the dog bark for your voice. You know, you just take it off the leash and swat it on the butt and send it off to play. Love it. And so we start with sound because that was what liberated me. I had a lot of I had a lot of good singing in my life as a young person. I was really great grateful to be in good choirs. Uh, but I never wanted to sing alone ever in front of anyone, which is a common fear except that my grandfather, my mother, and my brother were all accomplished solo singers. And so that lovely question, what's wrong with me? Uh, showed up because I would I felt like I would die if I tried to do that. So, I ended up going to a VO voice workshop in Minneapolis in my late 20s, a long time ago. And when I walked in, I thought, "My voice ended here." And What was beyond that sound was nothing. No sound. And that was my story. That's the truth I lived in. And in that first workshop, I made sound all the way up here. I don't know if you can hear that, but it's almost to the top of the piano. And it wasn't singing anymore. And I wasn't me anymore. I was a character, which is another thing I do with people is to pretend to be somebody else. Because then you'll do something that quote unquote you would never do. only guess what that's you two. So this distance set me, you know, blew that story apart and set me on this path that I'm still traveling. So we start with sound. We pretend to be characters and then I isolate and exaggerate each of the five elements to sort of give people a sense of what's the full range of possibility. So, the elements are earth and that's you. [laughter] You're an earth guy.

[00:06:10] Jacob: Not surprising. We'll come back to that.

[00:06:12] Barbara: Earth, fire, water, metal, and air. Each one sounds different. Each one is connected to a different part of the body and each one is useful for certain things and terrible for other things. So we generally go through the five elements sort of assessing who's home, who's missing and what mostly what people are noticing you know in their body, mind, memory, imagination. So, okay. And then in that moment, I was thinking about this as I was writing down some notes. In that moment when they notice it, because I think um you know, when we're singing in unison, for example, if we kind of become aware of just our own voice, you kind of have this instant reaction of like I'm maybe singing off key or I have this, you know, whatever. How do you get past that initial that first big barrier? It's got to be a big wall, right? at first when we first initially hear our voice and we want to like shut down and kind of get rid of it. You know, there are people who said, "I've been working on getting to your studio for three years." [laughter] I first heard about you. So, I think a lot of the work happens before they like sign up for an online coaching session or a class or something because it is crazy. Why do people come? Why do people do this? It is terrifying. I'm over my fear now, but I still really remember that breathless terror that showed up. So, I do think pretending to be somebody else is kind of secret sauce, you know, because the ego means well, right? It's like trying to protect us, but it's way too small. So just pretending for a minute to be drunk Julia child, you know, or a pissed-off cat or ah little baby or something. It uh it's playful. So, I think making it fun, playful, and I usually occupy the most ridiculous place in the room so that everybody else can just relax a little bit more cuz, you know, I am a lunatic. Yeah. Well, yeah. You give permission to other people, you know, they can open that door because they've seen you open it. Uh it makes me think of uh one of my favorite people in the world. He was my theater teacher in high school. I've actually had him on the podcast luckily. Um, and so he talked about that too. His name was David Craig and he would talk about he would always be the inspiration. Um, his subtext of life was dare to be different. Um, he would always wear costumes. He would always just try to be the one to kind of shake the typical way we see the world. Um, and on the podcast, that's what I was kind of asking him. Uh, just kind of how he saw the world, how he interfaced with it, and he had a mentor that taught him. Essentially, he was like, I noticed that there was this character as well of David Craig, and I could feed into it. I could be the character of David Craig, of Mr. Craig, the teacher. And that helped him kind of even step out of what he was naturally or, you know, maybe any insecurities or whatever he may have. Um, and play the character of this teacher that everybody thought was exuberant and playful and all of these things. Um, and man, that has stuck with me since our conversation, since he taught me in high school, for sure. Since our conversation, I think about that so often. Playing the character of this thing can really uh break us out of who we typically have been.

[00:09:51] Jacob: Yeah. And the I was a theater kid also saved my life actually. And uh people were saying what are you going to do with a theater degree? And it's like well watch you know two books

[00:10:03] Barbara: Treating people all over the world you know and part of it is just learning to loosen the bonds of who I think I am but part of what informed this work uh the five elements framework was also yian psychology and the idea of archetypes you know there are these uh forms you know energy forms that are like the king the warrior the princess the airhead head, the fool, the high priestess, all you know, all these characters. And I think our ancestors made really good use of them, right? They were always like invoking the unseen world. And we do that in this work as well. And it's powerful. I couldn't make the sounds I made. I was a bird at the time. [laughter] Only now that bird is part of Barbara, right? I couldn't go back into the same shape. Now I am Burn. [laughter] I'm sorry. I'll be one of those irritating people who changes her name. Um, and so, uh, I include, you know, that archetypal, it's a I think it's a sacred invocation of the unseen. And I think they just want to help us. I think they're looking for jobs, you know, there's like, you got anything for me? Because there is this feeling. I think most artists have had this, you know, actors or writers or singers where you feel something rising up in you that is more than you.

[00:11:35] Jacob: And oh my gosh, I live for that. Oh yeah.

[00:11:39] Barbara: So I do feel like the characters, you know, you can do these big archetypes, but I also think about real people, you know, I have uh I often invoke Maya Angelou when I want to slow down. I'm 6'2. I'm a very tall person and so is she. And when I want to slow down and inhabit my warm dignity and gravitas, I call in Maya Angelou and she changes me, right? And so you have one too in your theater teacher, you know that um that boldness. And so whenever I'm presenting or teaching, I'm the high priestess and the holy fool. That helps me know that I'm doing sacred work, but not to take it too seriously. And I think about Maya Angelou and my friend Margaret Wheatley who's the leadership author, world famous human being uh who I did a lot of work with in over the years and she has a very clear and deliberate way of speaking and so she helps me be more clear. So I have my little cadre with me when I'm whenever I'm teaching or speaking and

[00:12:48] Jacob: Yeah the gang's all here. I

[00:12:51] Barbara: [laughter]

[00:12:52] Jacob: Such elegance um as you as you're just presenting them to me, as you're kind of slipping through them. Um obviously that is where we want to get where we have these different archetypes within us and based off of the specific moment we allow them to kind of take the reign so to say. um when we're learning um I'm always fascinated with um Tony Robbins talks about priming a lot like he gets himself before he gets into one of his events or went to the one of these business situation he gets himself into the right state before he goes into it. Um is this something that you teach or is this was this part of your path where you would go okay I need to be like my aunt before I walk in into here or I need to embody this person before I walk into this building. Was that part of your process at all?

[00:13:38] Barbara: Well, I do feel like uh I like to make great big changes before I make small ones. So, I wanted everybody into the pool first, right? The gang. I wanted more of the gang before I got too I think a lot of times, especially culturally, we're always trying to get to the point. We're trying to like go fast and narrow and I want to open first. So that feels like liberation to get out of the voice box that we've all been living in. And so uh I want to I have my students do a lot of the warming up with the five elements, exploring them. It's kind of like a yoga practice only for your voice. It's like the full range of motion with awareness. And just get used to inhabiting all these different sounds in a big and small way. And usually the voice, unless it's been hurt in some way, you know, damaged physically, the voice is usually much more ready to go than the psyche. Like the voice is like even if it's been, you know, deep trauma. I've worked with people who've been through awful things, but usually the voice is just like, "Yes, let's go." You know, [laughter] but the psyche is like, "No, wait. I'm an introvert." Or in my case, I hated what I, you know, what I call the air voice. This high, soft, sweet voice. It's like, "Oh, for God's sake, I'm from Minnesota. I'm tall. I'm smart." You know, I could never get away with the little, "Hi, I'm just like, it grossed me out." And like most people, the parts of my voice I hate the most or I feel most uncomfortable with have the greatest gifts for me because it represents a part of us that's in exile somehow. And so for me, I didn't think that ear voice belonged to me partly because of social norms. I was like I couldn't fit the social norm. But deeper I like everyone rushed out of childhood really quickly. had to grow up really fast. And this is how we sound when we're when we're little. So I had when I opened up all that voice, there was just so many tears. So much healing of little Barbara, you know, little Barbie who didn't feel like she could, you know, be her civil sweet self. And now when that voice came back over time, it brought a lot of gifts like a diff a lightness. You know, I used to hang out down here because being a fake boy was a good thing in my family. My dad didn't like women very much. And we're good. He died. All is well. We got we got to a good place before he died. But he was kind of an ass and sarcastic. And so I just kind of um as the only girl, you know, in the family, I was like, I'm going to be a fake boy. Strategy. And so when this came back, oh, this lightness came back. I changed the way I walk, uh, changed the way I dress, changed the way I speak and sing, but mostly it just like popped open a different kind of spiritual connection to the sacred feminine.

[00:17:09] Jacob: Wow. Brilliant. Okay. Um, yeah. I really like I feel like you're painting the picture of, you know, uh this, you know, let's just say broadly our ego kind of being like a cork in some ways of uh like just all these different versions of our fluency that could be coming out. Um makes me think of uh Allan Watts, I think it was, who said the ego is uh a great servant but a terrible master. Exactly. And um so it seems to be I do love often talking about identity on this podcast. How does our identity, our ego, who we think ourselves to be now, how does that get in the way of our true voice expressing

[00:17:48] Barbara: In every way. And you know, I used to hate the ego. I used to get all up in my, you know, grumpiness about the ego. It's like, ah, such a pain. You know, it's always interfering with my freedom. And now I'm just like, oh honey, thank you. Mhm. Right. It's like it is like I think of it as like a pet like a dog who doesn't know the difference between the postal carrier and an intruder. And it means well it wants to protect me. And it does. It keeps me anchored in a story. And bless its heart. It's got a function. And like a dog, it can be trained. It's like, "Honey, I'm gonna leave who you think Barbara is right now, but I'll be back. So, sit, stay." Uh, and so, actually, one of the songs I wrote about this is called Brain Rats. It goes, I'm going to sing you a little bit of it. It goes like this, and it's just about that's going to happen no matter what whenever we step outside of who we think we are. So, here's the here's the chorus, and I'll send you the link to the uh YouTube video because funny. Brain [singing] rats. [music] I've got brain rats, a pestilential blight upon my mind. [singing] Brain rats are those wicked thoughts that [music] prove my every [singing] flaw. And every hopeful notion gives them something new to I hear them chewing [singing] in the night and on and off all day. They've really got [music] my number. All the awful stuff they say. [singing] And then off we go to just other verses. But I feel like the brain rats are the ego trying to protect us. And the stretch outside of that container needs to be gradual like yoga. You know, you stretch outside and say, "Okay, I'm going to be a little less introverted or a little more a little lighter." But you don't do it all at once. Most people it's a negotiation. It's like, "Okay, we're going to go out a little. Okay, now we have to come back in a little bit. Now we're going to go out a little bit. Oh, that's an edge. Okay, we'll come right back in again.

[00:19:59] Jacob: Okay. Yeah. And yoga is defined it's yoke, union, union with self. Um, how do we, you know, as people are going through this, I'm sure they come up with things that they need to, you know, keep, accept, but also get rid of. Um, how do you how do you kind of divvy that up? You know, when uh I just imagine some of these conversations that you have with people as they're freeing up their voice could probably be incredibly overwhelming. You know, suddenly they're like, "Oh, I just wanted to sing and now I need to process this like pretty heavy thing, you know." Um, I don't know. I guess uh what does that seem to look like? What have you experienced in that in that realm? Like as people are um you know uncovering things that maybe they didn't plan on uncovering and then trying to figure out what to get rid of and what to also unify. Well, yeah. Uh I only take people where they want to go, but I've gotten more accurate about sending, you know, sending the little bleep out into the world. Usually people are who are finding me are interested in transformation. However, I have I mean I was an organizational development consultant for 12 years. So I was in the world of business. No training in that whatsoever but very useful in working with lots of leaders, teams, people in the workplace. And so and I'm from Minnesota so it has to be practical. So this work can be really strategic and practical to say, okay, if you're a leader and you have to give a speech, you probably are going to need to use your fire voice. I did a video uh when I did some work with a guy who did a video who was talking about being really passionate about his work and you know he was horrified. He was passionate, but he was an introverted white guy from North Dakota. So, his idea of passion was like he was having a party inside, but nobodyated. We can't tell. Yeah, he's elated, but he looks like he's in a coma. And so, uh, we worked with him to help add fire to what he how he was speaking in that situation and also when he was doing presentations. And he had it. He found it. We just needed to sort of and it's always like tricky with introverts. I'm right in the middle so I'm a lot of both. Um it's always going to feel like a second language, you know, full expression to introverts. But hey, there's a lot of people living really well in second and third languages. So, you know, it can be very practical about, you know, how you talk in a presentation versus if you have really bad news to deliver. you know, I'm so sorry we have to let you go feels very different in the water voice than I'm really sorry we have to let you go. Right? So, it can be very pragmatic and strategic if people want to enter that way. But here's the thing is no matter where they enter, the rest of it's waiting for them because you can't change your voice without having your life come along for the ride. So, wherever people enter, it can be around speaking or singing or just feeling like they want to be more free, freely expressed in their life. Um, wherever they enter, pragmatic or transformational, it's all sitting right there. Yeah. Yeah. Wait, waiting to unpack. Um, okay. Uh, tell me more about your initial beginning on this journey. Uh, I think I heard I think you mentioned that you had a mentor that inspired you down this path. What did that look like?

[00:23:51] Barbara: Oh yeah. Uh the guy who took me on that first journey, his name is Shaul Ryan. He's a teacher with the Roy Heart Center in the south of France. He's a British guy with a Hebrew name who lives in France. Um but he was my teacher. He was so I was so scared in that first weekend. And he was he's this kind, calm, playful, gentle man. and um I felt safe enough to try things in his presence and then uh he directed me. I fell in love with this work instantly and I got a grant and went to the south of France and studied with a couple of other teachers that he recommended and then also followed this other person Richard Armstrong who's the teacher more of a singer uh teacher you know Richard's more of a singer Sha was more of an actor and so I worked with Richard both in France and in Canada and then years went by I kept working with Sha and his partner Carol when they would come to the Twin Cities and I don't even remember uh when, but he reached out and said, "Hey, I'm coming. Would you like to teach together?" I was like, "Uh me?" So, I guess I was worthless the first year because I [laughter] was so freaked out. Just like come on, you got anything? [laughter] Like, oh my god. Oh my god. And then um then I got over it and we taught together for over 20 years uh co-led uh workshops and then just last year he said I'm 80 I'm not going to make the trip now.

[00:25:31] Jacob: Yeah.

[00:25:31] Barbara: And so the joy of it is that my nephew Travis uh who lives in Atlanta has been studying with Shaul and me for many years and has trained in my work. I've trained about 75 people in to be trainers or coaches in this approach. And he um he and I are now teaching together. We did our first one last fall and we have another one in a couple of weeks. Um and you know, we're innovating [clears throat] because we're the next generation. So,

[00:26:06] Jacob: Taking what we've learned and then he's done a lot of circle singing, vocal improv. He's an amazing singer and teacher. He'll He's a better teacher than I'll be. You know what I mean? It's like Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:18] Barbara: That's what's supposed to happen.

[00:26:20] Jacob: Beautiful. Yeah.

[00:26:22] Barbara: I have somebody in my family like

[00:26:25] Jacob: Yeah. That must be fantastic to say the least. What um what are you learning from your nephew? What has he taught you? What have you learned from him?

[00:26:34] Barbara: Well, he has studied with uh Rian who does a lot of vocal improvisation. also an amazing jazz improviser, toured with Bobby McFaren for years and um so he studied with her. So he's brought a bunch of like vocal games which I think is really a blast. Um and so that's kind of the stuff that he brings. He invents them and brings that. Um, and what's interesting is, um, this is not exactly in the heart of the work, but I am used to being in the supporting role for Shaol. And when Travis and I did our first weekend, the weekend before, I fell down the stairs that are right behind me [laughter] and I broke my wrist, my right wrist. I'm right-handed. And so he showed up. He was going to come on Thursday. He came on Monday. I fell on Saturday. He was in my house Monday morning and stepped in and took care of his auntie. And I'm used to being the assistant teacher for Shaol and I'm used to being the caregiver because I took care of my sweet mama for about 15 years. And so it was suddenly this like, oh wow, here I am. [laughter] I'm now the lead teacher and I have a broken wing. and I let him take care of me.

[00:28:05] Jacob: Wow. Yeah, he's amazing. Yeah, that must been a spiritual experience to say the least. And then we while he was here, it was the longest time we'd had just the two of us. We had a whole week in my little house here. And while he was here, we worked up Jacob Collier's amazing song, Little Blue. Are you familiar with that? I'm familiar with Jacob Collier. I can't remember the name.

[00:28:28] Barbara: Oh my god, his Little Blue song. So, we borrowed a guitar from I play the piano. I don't understand guitar, but we borrowed a guitar from my friend Jason, another Jason, and worked that song up and sang it for the group and also at my little unarian fellowship. And we would we were practicing it and we'd just look at each other and just go the burst just hears because it is who we are to each other.

[00:28:54] Jacob: Yeah. Wow. Okay. Incredible. That's so beautiful. Um All right. Well, let's speak on the um so I'm a bit of a musician. I came through it came through it through a love of music. Um started as a DJ more than anything and then of course I've expanded into um more on the electronic side of things, more on the beat making side of things. Uh writing is my favorite thing out of all of it. But I've been lucky enough to be surrounded by incredible talented musicians. Like some of the most insane guitar players are good friends of mine. I just feel so lucky. Um, but I've been in these moments where, you know, there's band practice at my place and I'm watching these like just unifying moments of just words being spoken without words and just the prediction, just the jazz of jamming, you know. Um, I'm sure you've been a part of these in so many various different ways. um whether it's you leading like on your TED talks for example you led the crowd in singing everybody in unison in those sort of um you know again unifying experiences what is that do you think I mean what compared to our [laughter] impossible question but no it is it makes me I did that whole second TED talk by the way there was about a thousand people in that room

[00:30:13] Barbara: And I got them I did an experiment and I didn't have a plan B if [snorts] they didn't do it. I had them all got them all started singing and then I abdicated leadership and they all decided when it was over and they did it. I and I'd never the most I'd ever done it with is 300 people and that was triple that at least. So, um but I did that second TED talk because I can't get over what can happen in a group of people.

[00:30:42] Jacob: Yeah.

[00:30:43] Barbara: And singing is the primary way that I've been doing it. I'm a song leader. I have been for years and years and all the singing resistance stuff that's been happening in the Twin Cities. Uh I planted all those seeds for that community over decades of community song leading in that place and now you know there's thousands of people who show up and like sing and march in the streets and now it's a worldwide movement. So what the hell? We never know what we're doing. Yeah. How cool. But [clears throat] I started when I was singing solo back in my 20s. I started as a jazz singer. And there is such magic in that. Uh and the closest thing I can think of is it's like the mycelial connections between trees.

[00:31:36] Jacob: I love that.

[00:31:37] Barbara: Right. And human beings have it because otherwise why would a thousand people stop a song all at the same damn time? And why would it happen over and over and over again in groups of 30, 40, 50, 60, 80, 100, 300 people? It's like it happens all the time when I'm leading in this way. And it has to be without paper because I think the paper makes us more certain. Like we're not I actually I wrote a little song called Listen with Your Skin. It's a little community layer song.

[00:32:10] Jacob: That's a good name.

[00:32:11] Barbara: Yeah. In five four time of course because you know it had to be groovy. But that is what I think happens when we're in that place. You know I lead I get it started and then I abdicate and then people start like okay it's up to us now. And I think that kind of singing lights up the my the thing that's already there all the time, the mycelial connections between us. And you know, I did a lot of team building when I was a consultant all those years. And it was like I could have just had them singing together. And I used to I used to get him singing rounds um as a way to experience being an individual as part of a group as part of a larger hole because that's what a round is. You're singing a part with a little group and then everybody starts at different times and it makes a hole. And it's a perfect metaphor for how complicated and rewarding it is to be part of a group of people doing something in the world. Yeah. Yeah. Emphasis on both complicating and rewarding. I that's well said. Um okay, I have to share this story. I um it's happened a few times in my in my you know DJ career. Uh more recently within the last year um I essentially was doing a DJ set at my friend's private place. Um you did mention my celial. I will just be honest. We there was a little bit of mushrooms involved. Some magic mushrooms were involved. But um we everyone was basically say 30 to 40 people basically on a small dose of mushrooms. And um that time almost more than ever of my like 14 years of DJing. The crowd the people there um they were a lot of like it was like meditation teachers and raiki healers and very like spiritual people. Um they were choosing the songs through me. I it was this most out of body experience. Um, I had some kind of mapped out, oh, I want to play this song. I have this playlist. I had kind of like a little bit of a few hundred kind of gathered that I wanted to play with songwise. Um, but by the end of it, I mean, I mean, for at least probably 45 minutes, they were choosing the songs. It was this unifying experience. We actually led up into um I play a lot of electronic music. It was a lot of ecstatic dancing, a lot of very um some goofy stuff, some beautiful stuff. And by the end of it, it's almost like headbanging, like heavy stuff. And I didn't plan to go there at all, but uh elevated us up. We're all dancing. Everyone's dancing. I played this song. Um, funny enough, the lyrics were uh like, I can give you what you want, what you need. And that was that song. And then I just felt intuitively that was the peak. And I was like, that was it. We've arrived. And I just slowly faded the music down. And I got on the mic and I was like, "Uh, hey guys, welcome back to Earth." And then everyone just was holding their head and like laughing hysterically and everyone's like, "Where did we just go?" And my friend's mom who was inside, like she was kind of coming out and dancing a little bit, but she was like, "You guys just went on such an adventure." But anyway, um, you know, those unifying experiences, there was really, [snorts] it has its silliness to it, has its like, you know, oh, it's fun. We're all dancing and we had a little bit of mushrooms, but it was this very profound, beautiful opening to these unifying experiences. We even before I even started playing, we all did a guided meditation together. Um, we set our intentions for what we wanted to kind of experience that evening. Um, it was just this wonderfully beautiful thing. I'm sure we've had so many traditions in the past who have had similar situations with chanting and mantras and these sorts of things, but um yeah, I just uh I wanted to share that with you. I couldn't resist. Um I thought that you would you would think that was pretty cool. I'm sure you've had pretty similar experiences where you as the leader were kind of being, you know, pushed into corners by the crowd. Yeah. Yeah. And uh I have so many thoughts right now. There's a collision in my head. One is that um strangely you know I'm I mentioned I train people to carry my work you know to either just present the five elements framework and take people through an experience and then a deeper training around how do you like use it in a coaching way over you know time there are a number of people who are psychedelic facilitators who are showing up to learn my work because singing is such a part of a lot of those traditions and it was Well, didn't see that coming. Sure, why not? Um, I often I know that songs are alive. They are another form. We're just vibrating stuff and so are they. And I have had them over and over again. A song will come and whisper in my ear. And I'll be teaching or I'll be leading and a song will show up and be like, "What are you doing here? And then I'll I trust it, you know. I want to be a good I feel like I want to be trustworthy to magic, you know, that [snorts] magic will find me. I will respond. So I just um honoring the lumines whenever possible. And so I'll start singing the song and somebody will burst into tears and say, "Oh, that was my mom's favorite song and she just died." You know, it's just like what? And so I do feel like becoming more uh awake to the all the living, all the living, the invisible, the unseen world, the songs, the characters, the energies that want to move and in the world. And it's quite incredible to see what can happen. Yeah. And now I still I'm back to jazz. I left it for a long time. When I was singing it, I was so nervous I couldn't sing it at all. I did a little bit, but now I'm like, woo. So in my little town of 2,000 people at the bottom of the hill where I live, there's a historic auditorium. It was a vaudeville auditorium built in 1916 that just got beautifully refurbished by a couple local guys. and my dear friend Marissa Dodge in my town of 2,00 people, brilliant songwriter, great pianist, singer, soul sister. Uh, a lot of times on Friday night, like tonight I'll be going down, she's going to be singing with a friend of hers is a blues singer. A lot of times she's playing with her friend Dan who's a guitarist. and I'll just go down there, hang out with my friends in the little lounge and sit in and sing all these songs I used to sing when I was in my 20s, you know, 40 years ago. Only now I can sing them. And that improvisation, there's nothing better, you know, than you've got a structure, you know, to hang on to. My first piano player said, "Don't listen to the piano. I will screw you up. Listen to the bass and you'll always know where you are. And I thought, well, that's good advice for life, right? What's the baseline? What's the fundamental values that are guiding my story? That's what I'm going to listen to. And then I'm improvising over that. Um, I haven't had a W2 since 1991, so I've been making it up for a really long time.

[00:39:44] Jacob: That's great. You're improvising.

[00:39:46] Barbara: Improvising. Big improvisation.

[00:39:49] Jacob: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, great. Um, all right. Let's get a maybe a little more sticky for people who are listening. Is there anything that you could suggest anybody listening right now? Like what could they start with? Is there some humming, some vocal techniques, some um things they could start their everyday morning with? What do you got to offer anyone listening?

[00:40:07] Barbara: Well, let's see. Uh, I'm tra I'm debating. I think I'm going to suggest that they play with sound through laughing. The five elements. If I have to introduce the five elements framework quickly, I can do it laughing. [laughter] So you can laugh like a big hairy o [laughter] and that'll get your chest opened up. [laughter] We all know somebody who laughs like this, you know, SLIGHTLY OBNOXIOUS.

[00:40:43] Jacob: [laughter]

[00:40:46] Barbara: AND THEN THE WATER. THAT was fire. Then drunk Julia Child [laughter] for metal. Baby for air. So laughing is a great way to just open up the different sounds. I also just feel like um if people are wanting to do something less ridiculous, uh you can voice your yawns when appropriate. Whenever I get people in the earth voice, they're like yawning perpetually.

[00:41:21] Jacob: Oh yeah.

[00:41:22] Barbara: Um so that's a way to sort of open the channel between the earth the um chest, the body and the head. And a really easy access point is reading children's books out loud even if you're not reading for any children. Because basically like if take like the Wizard of Oz, you've got fire was king of the forest, you've got earth and pay no attention to that man behind the curtain fire. Um somewhere over the rainbow Dorothy and at least in the movie was water, the witch is metal and Glenda the good witch is air. And you can do that with so many stories. so much mythology, Winnie the Pooh, uh Lord of the Rings. Uh yeah. So, but children's books often take us into a speaking.

[00:42:20] Jacob: Yeah.

[00:42:21] Barbara: More variety in how we speak. That's such a that's such a great idea. And I love the I love just going through the different tiers of laughter. I think I'm going to try that. I'm try I'm going to try to do that in the mornings just to like wake myself up to the different uh you know, versions wanting to come out. [laughter] Uh I've also been listening to uh I'm a pretty big Harry Potter fan. I really love the books. Um and Jim Dale reads the audio books on Audible and oh man, he is so good. He's such a great voice actor. Uh I really enjoy I feel like he hits all of those throughout the whole time very well. whenever there's I mean these are just human qualities being grounded passionate caring incisive and clear and inspirational and uh I interviewed an old friend and student of mine who has been carrying the work uh to international audiences. He teaches teachers at international schools and so people from all over the world will be in the room and he will present the five elements to them because as teachers you need to be able to read the room modulate you know be more conscious of your voice because it's one of the primary things you have and I said did you ever encounter any cultural like nose and he's like I never no I never So yeah, I mean there have been exceptions. When I was talking about air, I was in Cincinnati, Ohio. Actually, I'm headed back there again to do some work with a friend. Um but um I was saying, "Oh, this is how we talk to babies, you know." And this large African-American woman raised her hand and I said, "Does this make sense?" And she's like, "Well, in my community, we don't talk to children like that. We use fire." I was like, "Well, give me some of that." It's like, "Hey, come on over here. Give me some sugar." You know, [laughter] and I was like, "Yeah, that was so great." So, there have been a few exceptions over the years, but by and large, these are just ways we have of being human, and we often change our voice unconsciously. I mean, I hope we talk to our pets differently than we talk to our boss or a scary stranger,

[00:44:39] Jacob: Right? Yeah. I can't help it. If I see a dog, there's a dog voice coming out. There's a version of me who really loves dogs and I'm going to talk to him like that. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. And then I have to It's funny. I just met one of my neighbors and they have this little tiny dog and I was meeting him, you know, he's another grown man. I'm like, "Hey, how you doing? I'm Jacob." You know, I'm shaking his hand and then he has this little cute dog and I'm like, "Hi, hey Julie. Hi. How are you?" And then I Oh, yeah. Stand up. I'm talking to you again. [laughter] The variations.

[00:45:09] Barbara: Yeah. when I'm teaching uh I was at a corporate event um in Atlanta last year and I was teaching this to a bunch of leaders uh and I love giving this to leaders and I you know some of my students have been teaching people in leadership programs at universities and I would love to get this in every one of those because I mean everybody deserves to have a voice and leaders voices have a bigger impact in the world because they're leaders and when it's going well it's much better. It's amplified. And when things are not going well, it's also amplified. But um I count when I was teaching the air voice, I said, "Okay, I'm going to count to five and I want you to talk to your pets or your young ones in your life." So I count her to three. And the whole room was just like And then everybody laughed, you know, just like [laughter] it's universal.

[00:46:03] Jacob: Yeah. Yeah. We can't help it. Um Okay. Uh you mentioned a term in a podcast I was listening to you that I would like to explore more of code switching. How our voice um based off of like who we're interacting with um in different environments. We all have it a bit naturally, but can you expand more and maybe even maybe give your explanation or definition of what code switching means for someone who's never heard that before?

[00:46:26] Barbara: Yeah, I learned it from my friends uh who are I learned it from African-American friends. It's a term that I heard the muse just to say that when I'm talking to my friends who are black, I sound different than when I'm talking to white people and or others. So, uh I pay attention to those kinds of shifts in my own world, but also in the worlds of my students. So, I didn't originate that, but I feel like it can import into how we're all code switching. We're all shifting uh depending on who we're talking to. But then there's also a lot of unconscious things we're doing with our voices that are spilling all kinds of information about us. So, uh, we're revealing our level of education, uh, maybe our gender, maybe our class, our mood, uh, our level of health. You know, I can always tell when my favorite NPR people have a cold in our podcast house. You know, they have that kind of stuffy sound. Um, and the people we know well, we can hear. You know, when I was taking care of my sweet mama, I could tell by the low of hello when she answered the phone if it was a good day or a bad day.

[00:47:55] Jacob: And we've all, I'm sure, all had that experience where we call someone we know well and they answer the phone and we say, "What's wrong?" You know, can hear it in the voice. So, some of it is um we're constantly shifting unconscious unconsciously. And I think of code switching as being something that's more purposeful. Yeah.

[00:48:20] Barbara: Yeah. And would you um I don't want to put words in your mouth by phrasing it like this, but would you cons you wouldn't consider it a bad thing though? It's just something we kind of all do to some to some degree. We're not trying to like put on some sort of false mask. We're trying to cuz I feel like when I catch myself doing it, it's just me trying to connect with someone in a different way. It's just me trying to maybe like meet where maybe I at least in that moment perceive that they're at. um trying to just lessen the chances of miscommunication basically trying to get right to the point and speak their language. Um I for me it feels I'm coming from a good place but I'm not sure if it's always perceived that way. Well, you know, you can use anything for good or ill. You know, uh Hitler had a great fire voice.

[00:49:06] Jacob: Right. Right. So, I think one of the things I do hear from [clears throat] people is like, "Well, this just doesn't feel authentic to me."

[00:49:15] Barbara: Like, my air voice did not feel authentic at all. Felt like putting the cat in the bathtub. It's like I hate that. So to me, being able to shift is a good thing because we're communicating across so many differences, you know, generations, cultures, um, class, uh, I mean, all kinds of things. And so, uh, one of my mentors, Peter Block, who's a leadership author, wrote really beautiful books about community, um, as well as leadership. And he says, "Nothing happens in this world until we're until we connect.

[00:49:57] Jacob: Nothing can happen between people." And so

[00:50:02] Barbara: What I like to teach is to have a big enough sense of who you are as a person and as a voice that if fire is like, you know, making people kind of back off and they're like, "H, that's a you can, you know, if you're reading the room, you can kind of tell it's like, oh, they're backing away from me." you might be able to switch to water and talk in a way that is, you know, you're looking for the connection,

[00:50:26] Jacob: Right? Yeah.

[00:50:27] Barbara: And for a lot of women, water is like how we're supposed to be. We're here to take care of everyone all the time and not be a and not be an and, you know, have to be nice and it's like, oh god. So, a lot of powerful women have said, I can't afford to be in that voice ever. And it's like, well, you might not be able to be in that voice at work, but you definitely need to have your heart with you. And the water is the voice of the heart. So, if you have can get a big enough sense of who you are, um, you can come from all these different places and still feel like yourself,

[00:51:09] Jacob: Right? Yeah. [clears throat] I love that. What some great points. I love the way you said that. Uh it I'm reminded of um kind of my different variations at work of even myself when I was younger. Uh I worked at like clothing shops, at skate shops, you know, and the way I speak, not only my language, but even my vocal tonality is going to be different when it's, you know, a 16-year-old kid who's coming with like $5 to get a new piece of grip tape on his skateboard versus his grandma comes with him. You know what I mean? So, I'm just I'm going to speak to them a little bit differently to try to meet with them. But the end goal is to connect, you know. Um I find I find and I wonder what you think about this. I uh I hate to make generalizations of like a whole generation, but I do find a lot more younger people just say they say less. Um they speak less. I notice it. And uh because I grew up working at clothing stores, when I walk into clothing stores, I'm always I want to be greeted. I want um I want them to say hello. I don't really care about exactly what they're saying. Hey, let me know if I could help you with anything. Hey, we have a special going on. Whatever it is, I find more and more they just don't speak much at all. Um, have you noticed that? And, uh, if there is anybody listening who maybe that is their default state, would you have any advice for them? Uh, maybe they're afraid to speak, maybe they're afraid of what exactly they're saying? Um, I don't know. Does anything come to mind when I when I mention that? Yeah. What I haven't noticed that necessarily, but I have noticed the vocal fry. You know, there's a lot of younger people who are like talking, you know, with a vocal fry,

[00:52:49] Barbara: Which drives me nuts because it's basically anorexic. It's an anorexic tone. It's like you're starving your vocal cords for the air they need to function as they were designed. Uh, and then you're also not breathing as much, so you're dumber.

[00:53:07] Jacob: [laughter] You know what I mean? You're not you're not spending air, you're not taking it in, you're not giving it out. So, it's this kind of frozen uh fry thing.

[00:53:17] Barbara: Um what I have noticed is the appetite for singing among the younger generation. I mean, so many of the people who are out in the streets in Minneapolis, yeah, they're a bunch of boomers and Gen Xers, too. But a lot of the leaders in that are in their 30s and 40s. And there's a whole movement. I know there's people, I think, in Austin who do this kind of singing. Um, where it's oral tradition, no music, no performance, it's just singing in the old way. And, uh, there's certainly a lot going on now with this whole singing resistance movement. There's pods popping up everywhere. And a lot of the people who are showing up at these singing camps where a lot of this started are younger and they're writing amazing songs. And so what's interesting is it feels like there's a bifurcation. There's like the people who only communicate through text and gaming and sort of being silent. Yeah. Meetings through portals. Technology portals. Uh, and then there's a whole subculture that's probably a lot of the people that were at your dance, your rave, you know, who are looking for these more organic ancient ways of being together with dance ecstatic. Um, there's a great book actually that talks about this. I want to get it in the get it in. I thought of it earlier when you were talking about your thing uh that you did. Um, it's called Dancing in the Streets. A history of collective ecstasy by Barbara Erin Reich. And it's not a new book, but I think about it a lot. I referenced it in both of my books because I think we used to do this all the time. We need it. We need a break from the ego. We're not supposed to be alone in here. It's bad for us, right? Don't leave me alone with this woman, you know? And so her whole hypothesis and she builds it all up is that for most of human history we had regular opportunities to lose ourselves usually through some sort of chemical alteration, special food, dance, music, trance. Um, and we did it all the time. And so we're wired that way. And just usually with that, she tracks it back to the rise of the Catholic Church when those festivals kind of were suppressed. Uh, then the word melancholy, melancholas shows up and we start getting depressed because we're not supposed to be alone. And that just helps me so much. It's not it's not just like go to therapy because you're lonely. It's like no actually you're just a human being who's not getting like fundamental experiences that human beings need to get a break from their ego. And so I'm really celebrating the rise of these kinds of events that you talked about in trans dance, ecstatic dance, um singing camp, um these opportunities. You can't deny that you're connected to other human beings when you're in a group of 75 people and they all stop singing at the same moment.

[00:56:45] Jacob: Yeah.

[00:56:46] Barbara: You cannot mind your way out of that.

[00:56:50] Jacob: Right. Right. That happened and it happened. We all shared it. We felt it in our bodies. It's undeniable that we are deeply connected to each other. Yeah. So, I think people are I think the human spirit is always looking for that. Where is that community? Um

[00:57:13] Barbara: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And I think we should all lean into lean into finding something that makes sense to us. I've even done it's been a few years now that I think of it, but um I've even done I would go to like a you know just a nightly guided meditation where some guy would talk for a little while and then he'd kind of talk about meditation and then we'd ask questions and those sorts of things. But they would always start with chanting. Um I forget exactly what chant they did. I don't think it was like the Hari Krishna, but it was some sort of Buddhist related chant of some sort. And um I remember when I first did it cuz I didn't know any of these people or whatever. And it was kind of in a small room. It was like in someone's living room. And uh the first few minutes I was like this feels weird. And I was really aware of my own voice and everything. And then after a few I feel totally opened up and now I'm part of this unifying thing. And then I was way freer to ask questions that came up and I felt connected to these people that I really didn't even have an opportunity to, you know, I'd introduce myself to them and say hello, but I didn't know these people, but I felt vastly more connected to them after just chanting for like 10 minutes. I know it's so simple and I people are so scared of it. I mean, if I if I had a nickel for every time somebody said, "Are we gonna hold hands and sing kumbaya?" And my friend Melanie Deorg gets all up in people's faces because Kumbaya is a sacred song in the African-American tradition. And she's African-American song leader, singer, conductor, composer, and she's like earth voice, total earth voice. But um my friend Peter Block, I'll be going to Cincinnati. He's written really beautiful books. One is called Community, a structure for Belonging. He wrote one with his friend John Mcnite called Abundant Community. And it's just about what are the sort of conversations you can have in a group of people so that the future is distinct from the past. And he and I have chased around a lot together um co- keynoting. and um he helped give words to what I instinctively felt music did in a room. And so I'll be going to Cincinnati in early May to bring music to a gathering um about community that he's part of and a lot of other people. Um, and singing is going to be a part of it. And I'm so grateful that he actually gave a name to what I intuitively felt the music was doing. One of the things he says is, you know, the thing about he's kind he's tall sardonic Jewish guy, very funny, and he's like, you know, the thing about music is even if you hate it, it's got you. You can't defend against it. I was like, "Yeah." So, we would do keynotes, you know, at these big conferences and he would we'd both come on stage and I would before anybody said anything after the introduction, I would do a song and people would all be just like, you know, this is at like a big hotel conference room and this is not what's expected. The piano, I have a key big keyboard up there and even they walk in the room and the piano hasn't like

[01:00:31] Jacob: Yeah.

[01:00:32] Barbara: Looking at their little thing, you know? I was like, "Am I am I in the right room?" And then I would do a song and he would get up and, you know, because he's a an old white man with a strong handshake and a bunch of best-selling books, he would just name what just happened and what my role was. And our dance was that it was like jazz. He would talk and then I'd hear something he'd say and then I'd just go stand at my keyboard and he would bring his comments in for a landing and then I would do a song and people said, "Did you write that song just for that?" It was like, "No, actually I had did write a lot of songs based on things he said because he's so eloquent." But we were plugged into the same kind of I don't know meaning

[01:01:20] Jacob: Yeah. vein. And so we would do that back and forth. It was such a joy. Just so I'm excited I get to do this again. But yeah, that's so exciting. Yeah, you're speaking through the myelial network of one another. Um exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. So, um I would like to talk about your books briefly. Um your first book, how long has it been since you've written that one?

[01:01:40] Barbara: Uh 2011, I think. Yeah, it's been a minute. It's full voice, the art and practice of vocal presence. And it goes through the five elements. Basically, it opens up a big conversation about what voice is, you know, beyond what we normally think. And then I got asked to write a second book and this is that both of them are on audio book and ebook and all the things.

[01:02:03] Jacob: Oh yeah.

[01:02:04] Barbara: But then I got asked to write vocal intelligence, leading with vitality, presence, and impact. And so this one still is about the five elements, but it's kind of aimed more at leaders um leadership. And so I tell a lot of stories about leaders. Um this the second one though started as an audio book. So I really recommend the audio book for vocal intelligence especially because it also includes about an hour of my music

[01:02:33] Jacob: That I

[01:02:35] Barbara: Would you know put and then there's also a part in there at the end. It's called who you going to be while you do what you do. And it's basically a keynote that I do a lot. It's a musical keynote. um, five ideas for sustaining energy and humanity in the midst of chaos. And so I took that keynote and I made it into, you know, put it at the end of the book. Um, and it there's five ideas and five songs and stories and things. So those are my books.

[01:03:05] Jacob: Yeah. Wonderful. Okay.

[01:03:06] Barbara: I just got the paperback of Vocal Intelligence yesterday.

[01:03:06] Jacob: Oh, nice. That probably feels great to like actually hold the paperback in your hand. That must be cool. Yeah. I never planned it. Yeah. Yeah. Did you plan on even writing a first book? Like is that something you had on your agenda before you? You know, my strategic plan has been what the hell? [laughter] Yes.

[01:03:27] Barbara: You know, so friend, a woman heard me in Georgia when I was there presenting to a group uh and she connected to my first publisher, Barrett Kohler, great publisher, and said, "I just heard this woman and I think she should write for us." So I came home from that trip with an email from an editor and I was like I had to read it four times. It was like what you know I make I've made nine recordings. I write songs and record songs. I'm a singer songwriter. That's what I make. I love to write too but um it didn't hurt that these two pe mentors of mine Peter Black and Margaret Wheatley are like rockstar authors for them and they gave a really nice endorsement as well. So, didn't see that coming, but I put it put I actually had an ecstatic experience when in the rewrite. I don't remember much about it. I just remember sitting at my dining room table just in an ecstatic state rewriting this book. And uh and then I got approached for the second one last year. I had no idea. Um I actually ignored the first email [laughter] from this agent. I get [clears throat] all kinds of like everybody I get all kinds of silly things but

[01:04:42] Jacob: Yeah like this is probably AI and probably not a real person. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Uh okay so what have you I mean the answer may be very well your second book or in your second book but what has changed about your message since your first book if anything? That's a great question. You know, I feel like I just I'm just more sure that it's valuable. Do you know? I've seen it's been a long I mean, I've seen a lot since I wrote the first one and I had already done a lot of work. Um, as I tell the people I'm training, you can really trust the work.

[01:05:27] Barbara: You know, you can trust these elements. You can trust the voice. You can trust the soul of the people you're working with. Um, so I think the biggest thing that's changed is my conviction that this is an essential part of being human. Um, part of my work, part of my service work is I have a comfort choir. We sing for people who are in hospital or hospice. You call us up for no and we'll show up four or five people for no money and just sing for you songs of comfort and healing. It's the best work I do. And so I've had a lot of exposure to death and dying through that work, but also I've just had a lot of people die in my life and um lots of them rather consciously and generously sharing their experience. And so for me, I think voice is just a huge part of how we get our gifts in this world before we die. I think we come here loaded with something. And I think our job while we're here is to learn to love and be loved. To quote the old Nature Boy song, the greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return. And to give the gifts that you're loaded with and the voice is huge part of both of those things. So, um, so I feel like as I'm as I'm getting closer to my own departure, hopefully it'll still Well, I who knows who knows, but I am more convinced that uh voice is a really big part of being having a good life. Yeah. Yeah. Being able to uh communicate what's really in you, kind of being a conduit. I wrote this line the other day that was uh something along the lines of uh I am a human a human-shaped hole in the universe. It was something like that, you [laughter] know.

[01:07:30] Jacob: Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was kind of good. Um

[01:07:32] Barbara: Really good. Yeah. But yeah, I think it is so many of these things. Uh call them spiritual if you'd like, but you know, it's just a matter of like we said, trying to get out of our own way, trying to unccork the ego and just allow um you know, something that is more divine or more true or uh is in communion with one another to come forth, you know,

[01:07:58] Jacob: To really pour out, right? What else would you rather be doing with your time? I [laughter] know, right? Really? You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. Uh, I just want to glance over my notes here. Uh, we are getting up here in time, but I think I had a couple more. Um, oh, okay. Uh, I did want to ask you about, um, so, uh, I'm a big fan of meditation and, uh, one that I found that I keep coming back to kind of my daily for a few the last few years has been actually transcendental meditation. It's a mantra meditation, TM. if you're familiar. Um, and uh, it's for me, I've just basically I was given a nonsense word. It doesn't have meaning to anybody but me. Um, it's just kind of a trigger word that in my head I know it's just a relaxation of my nervous system. And I repeat that for 20 minutes, ideally twice a day if I can get it, but definitely once a day for 20 minutes. Um, and I notice especially after like the couple hours afterwards, uh, it's almost like the background of the mantra is continually going on like even after I stand up and that's almost where kind of the peace is. It's like this I've cleared away some of the mud of the daily self and I have this continuous like calm reminder that everything is okay and my nervous system is fine and I can allow it all, etc., etc. It just kind of works in the background. Um, something I noticed on your on uh your TED talks was like I would be listening to my phone was on the counter and after everyone was done singing, you'd be talking and then I think like you would start the mantra back up or you'd have the audience start it back up and I would pick back up right with them. So like even in my apartment or even in my house here, I was like the mantra of the group singing that I had just listened to was still working through me and I don't even I didn't really consciously notice it until it was picked back up. So, um, I guess I want to kind of ask you about what do you think about mantras and do you think singing, especially group singing, is a bit of a mantra that kind of stays with us? Is it like a deposit into a bank that just keeps, you know, gaining in currency, I guess?

[01:10:05] Barbara: Yes. Yeah. I always have something in my going in my background. I people give me music all the time and I'm like I just don't listen to it because I have an inner I have an inner Spotify going all the time and it's usually something I'm working on, you know, I'm I've you know I'm almost always writing something and so but I've also noticed that the [clears throat] silence after the song or the chant is maybe that's why we do it. So after years of noticing this, I made a little poem and it's the first time I've written a poem that I didn't write it down until I got it done. I did it all oral tradition and I was I lead retreats and a singing retreat for women in Mexico. And yes, it's fun. Um and I was walking the beach and writing this. I remember kind of where I was and it goes like this. We make the song for the silence that comes after and laughter's for the ache that lingers in our middle and the riddles for what happens as we quest for the rhyme and time is for the knowing of the timeless. And I'm less inclined to think that I make a song. It's clear. It's been here all along. And my longing and this silence calls the song.

[01:11:51] Jacob: That's so good.

[01:11:52] Barbara: Thank you. [laughter]

[01:11:53] Jacob: I love that one.

[01:11:54] Barbara: Yeah. So I feel like there's sound all the time everywhere. And then when we use our voices in some way, we plug into the resonant hum of life that is happening all the time. And then I do think sometimes the song is just the little factory for the byproduct of that resonant wholesome silence afterwards. Yeah. Wow. So well said. I feel like you answer my question better than I could have even dreamed of. That's so good. Um yeah.

[01:12:31] Jacob: Yeah. It Yeah. digs us out of our own way. Uh okay. Um well great. Um we are getting up here. Barbara, thank you so much for your time. Um can I just ask you anybody who's listening who wants to explore more um of course they can go check out your books. Those will be linked down below. I'll link your website down below. But what are you working on? What do you got going on in the next um coming months or years? What can we look forward to as far as your work? Oh my gosh. Well, the things I know about, you know, there are things that always emerge that I was like, "Oh, didn't see that coming. What the hell?"

[01:13:04] Barbara: Um, I have regular online full voice fundamentals courses that I do fiveweek introduction to the elements. So, if people are interested in digging into those, I do them a couple times a year and it's a blast. Um, so that's a really easy access. Um, I'm also creating a self-directed course in the next couple months if people want to be able to just do it themselves. Um, I think it's more fun with other humans, but you know. Uh, and then I also am leading some retreats uh about living and dying. I made a new retreat called living dying music and mystery. And it is a mix of telling stories from what I've learned from my friends who have died from friends and family members. Uh it's kind of like an extended death cafe, you know, with exploring questions around death and dying. And then a lot of singing so that you're loaded up with some songs that you can take to the people around you or andor yourself as you look at your own mortality. And um so I do doing that in Pennsylvania in the fall and in on Whedby Island also in the fall and in Bayfield, Wisconsin next winter. So yeah, that's the growing edge of my work. I just started that in the last couple years and it's been really rich. Oh yeah, I can only imagine. I listen to a lot of Ramdos. I'm a big fan of Ramdos. Um, and he talks I learned so much from him when he talks about uh working with people who are dying. Uh, even him just talking about taking care of his own father and his stepmother as they were um, you know, uh, leaving Earth and Yeah. Wow. What a beautiful endeavor. What a truly uh, human experience. Yeah. I'll also be doing some work in California this fall um around voice and or living and dying. We're still organizing the tour u probably around Monterey Carmel area and San Diego. So, okay. And they can follow you. The easiest way is just to get on my website and sign up for my stuff and then you'll get you'll get some songs as they get born and um some other news about what's shaken.

[01:15:08] Jacob: Very well. Yeah. So, everybody head to the website. All that's linked down below. So, um, do you stay active on any social media, any Facebook, Instagram, anything like that?

[01:15:08] Barbara: Or Facebook, Instagram, and I'm also on LinkedIn, but I'm less interested. But, yeah, LinkedIn's a weird one, isn't it? It is. Just strange. Yeah. I just don't I don't know. And in I'm still new enough to Instagram, but I'm getting better. I'm getting better at it. Um, I'm a cold plunger. I It's March, you know, I got in this year in March

[01:15:53] Jacob: 22nd, uh, the river was open. So,

[01:15:56] Barbara: Oh, the river, too.

[01:15:58] Jacob: Very cold river. So, uh, yeah, I write I often post from down there, record things when I've just gotten out and I'm like, woo. That's [laughter] Yeah, that's a high followed by a silence unlike no other. The um I feel like the sound of less inflammation in your body, it brings out such a clarity of mind.

[01:16:21] Barbara: I just absolutely love the feeling. Yeah. And I miss it in the deep winter because I can't get in. Yeah. Yeah. I'm actually thinking I got this my back door there. I'm thinking I'm going to uh invest one of those uh chillers now that I have my own home. I can uh do a cold plunge at home. So, I'm with you on the cold plunge.

[01:16:36] Outro: All right. Yeah. You might be. Yeah, I'm a cold punch guy, too. Uh all right, Barbara. Well, thank you again um so much for your time. Uh thank you so much for your wisdom. Thank you just for doing your work and following your intuition. Um it seems you've helped many people. Uh it was it was great to hear from you and explore more of your work. I'm looking forward to checking out more of your work in the future and uh this was such a great time with you. So, just thank you so much. Thank you so much. It was a real joy to chat with you and I hope what we came up with was useful to other people. But honestly, I had a ball. That's what I'm It's a win already for me. I feel a little selfish sometimes of like I just love doing this. I just really get excited to have these conversations. So, I guess I'll hit record, you know? So, like I don't know if it's going to do anything in the world, but my job is to make sure people know about what I carry. That's all I want is to be useful. So, yeah. Yeah. Well, I think you're accomplishing that. And um yeah, anybody who's listening, check out more of Barbara's work. Uh follow her, reach out to her if you have any more questions. Um and then what do I always say at the end of these episodes? If you haven't drank any water today, what are you doing, man? You got to drink some water. And if you haven't stretched today, do a little stretching. And then how about you do a little singing as well? Test out your five elements and uh test out your singing [music] voice. Uh Barbara, thanks one more time. Listeners, love yourself and we will see you next [music] episode. Hello and welcome to the Junkyard Love. Hey, everything's going to be all right.

[01:18:04] Barbara: It's all good. It's all good.